Last 6 Speed Dyno- Our 383 LS Test Mule!
05-24-2013, 08:29 AM
#81
Thanks for clearing that up. I know these heads necessitate a LS3 intake, but wasn't sure on the headers. The only reason I asked is because someone who posted above said they are still running the Vette manifolds, so I just assumed their long tubes couldn't transition over.
.The heads are d port shaped, but so are 243s. The long tube flanges are typically round, but they are bigger than the d port so they will seal fine.
06-13-2013, 03:43 PM
#82
Here is some testing we did a little while back of a stock shortblock 346. This is a comparison of stock 241 heads w/ stock Ls6 intake vs. our Stage 1 (As Cast) heads w/ stock Ls3 intake. Same cam was used in both tests.
HP Gain: +47.95
Torque Gain: +35.75
No loss in HP or Torque in any RPM.
HP Gain: +47.95
Torque Gain: +35.75
No loss in HP or Torque in any RPM.
06-25-2013, 02:19 PM
#84
Got the results in.
They were just as advertised and they picked up 45 rwhp and 35 rwtq over my 241 heads and ls6 intake manifold. I am pretty happy with that considering they are just the as cast versions. This was performed on the same dyno, so I know the gain is true. Compression ratio was the same before/after, so the gain came from flow.
What is puzzling is why my numbers are so low though. Cam only with the 241s, I only made 340. Adding the ls3 heads/intake pumped me up to 385.
I am going to get to the bottom of it. The bottom end just seems too healthy to be spitting out poor numbers. It revs smooth and does not burn oil. I think it is either the cam is ground wrong, or my torque tube and rear are eating the power. My rear whines like crazy and my torque tube's bearings are shot.
I am going to remedy all 3 and see if I can get back on the dyno. I am putting in an AI 230/238 cam now.
But the important part is that the heads gained me 45 rwhp, so money well spent in that regard! In my experience, that is pretty much what any head swap is going to gain you anyway. I have seen anywhere between 40-50ish rwhp over stock 241s when swapping heads on an ls1, so these definitely work. You may see 65+ with ported cathedrals and a fast, but that comes at a greater cost. These are a good budget option.
They were just as advertised and they picked up 45 rwhp and 35 rwtq over my 241 heads and ls6 intake manifold. I am pretty happy with that considering they are just the as cast versions. This was performed on the same dyno, so I know the gain is true. Compression ratio was the same before/after, so the gain came from flow.
What is puzzling is why my numbers are so low though. Cam only with the 241s, I only made 340. Adding the ls3 heads/intake pumped me up to 385.
I am going to get to the bottom of it. The bottom end just seems too healthy to be spitting out poor numbers. It revs smooth and does not burn oil. I think it is either the cam is ground wrong, or my torque tube and rear are eating the power. My rear whines like crazy and my torque tube's bearings are shot.
I am going to remedy all 3 and see if I can get back on the dyno. I am putting in an AI 230/238 cam now.
But the important part is that the heads gained me 45 rwhp, so money well spent in that regard! In my experience, that is pretty much what any head swap is going to gain you anyway. I have seen anywhere between 40-50ish rwhp over stock 241s when swapping heads on an ls1, so these definitely work. You may see 65+ with ported cathedrals and a fast, but that comes at a greater cost. These are a good budget option.
06-25-2013, 02:32 PM
#85
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Got the results in.
They were just as advertised and they picked up 45 rwhp and 35 rwtq over my 241 heads and ls6 intake manifold. I am pretty happy with that considering they are just the as cast versions. This was performed on the same dyno, so I know the gain is true. Compression ratio was the same before/after, so the gain came from flow.
What is puzzling is why my numbers are so low though. Cam only with the 241s, I only made 340. Adding the ls3 heads/intake pumped me up to 385.
I am going to get to the bottom of it. The bottom end just seems too healthy to be spitting out poor numbers. It revs smooth and does not burn oil. I think it is either the cam is ground wrong, or my torque tube and rear are eating the power. My rear whines like crazy and my torque tube's bearings are shot.
I am going to remedy all 3 and see if I can get back on the dyno. I am putting in an AI 230/238 cam now.
But the important part is that the heads gained me 45 rwhp, so money well spent in that regard! In my experience, that is pretty much what any head swap is going to gain you anyway. I have seen anywhere between 40-50ish rwhp over stock 241s when swapping heads on an ls1, so these definitely work. You may see 65+ with ported cathedrals and a fast, but that comes at a greater cost. These are a good budget option.
They were just as advertised and they picked up 45 rwhp and 35 rwtq over my 241 heads and ls6 intake manifold. I am pretty happy with that considering they are just the as cast versions. This was performed on the same dyno, so I know the gain is true. Compression ratio was the same before/after, so the gain came from flow.
What is puzzling is why my numbers are so low though. Cam only with the 241s, I only made 340. Adding the ls3 heads/intake pumped me up to 385.
I am going to get to the bottom of it. The bottom end just seems too healthy to be spitting out poor numbers. It revs smooth and does not burn oil. I think it is either the cam is ground wrong, or my torque tube and rear are eating the power. My rear whines like crazy and my torque tube's bearings are shot.
I am going to remedy all 3 and see if I can get back on the dyno. I am putting in an AI 230/238 cam now.
But the important part is that the heads gained me 45 rwhp, so money well spent in that regard! In my experience, that is pretty much what any head swap is going to gain you anyway. I have seen anywhere between 40-50ish rwhp over stock 241s when swapping heads on an ls1, so these definitely work. You may see 65+ with ported cathedrals and a fast, but that comes at a greater cost. These are a good budget option.
06-25-2013, 02:36 PM
#86
I agree. I'm interested to see what the remedies will bring for you. I agree a very good gain. I'm going with the stage II's and an EPS or Tick Performance Cam for my 383 build and topping it with a ported FAST 102 combo and 42lb injectors. This is going in an 02 WS6 6speed car with a 4.11 Strage 12 bolt and Kooks 1 7/8's with their 3" True duals with cats. To counter the 12 bolt loss, I may do a CF driveshaft. Unfortunately...I won't be able to do a baseline for the heads. Just a stock 346 vs. built 383 dyno comparison.
I am still probably just throwing a centri on mine, but I would like to see it make real power N/A first. I am sure the 4.10s sucked away 10-20 rwhp, so it's most likely right around 400. Which is still low though. I would say 420 would be right, since I do just have LS7 exhaust manifolds. Headers would probably gain me 10-15.
The forged 347s I have seen typically do dyno about 20 rwhp less than their factory GM equivalents, so I guess it is what it is. I think it's the huge valve reliefs and the fact that they are zero deck pistons, not out of the hole like GMs.
06-25-2013, 02:37 PM
#87
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Hey Ryan. I'd like to do the stage II on a set of LSA's (or maybe even LS9 castings if I can get my block modified for 12mm head bolts locally). I would supply my own castings. Can you do the hollow stemmed intake valves turned down for the smaller seats? If so how much would that add to the cost?
06-25-2013, 02:43 PM
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That's gonna be an awesome setup!
I am still probably just throwing a centri on mine, but I would like to see it make real power N/A first. I am sure the 4.10s sucked away 10-20 rwhp, so it's most likely right around 400. Which is still low though. I would say 420 would be right, since I do just have LS7 exhaust manifolds. Headers would probably gain me 10-15.
The forged 347s I have seen typically do dyno about 20 rwhp less than their factory GM equivalents, so I guess it is what it is. I think it's the huge valve reliefs and the fact that they are zero deck pistons, not out of the hole like GMs.
I am still probably just throwing a centri on mine, but I would like to see it make real power N/A first. I am sure the 4.10s sucked away 10-20 rwhp, so it's most likely right around 400. Which is still low though. I would say 420 would be right, since I do just have LS7 exhaust manifolds. Headers would probably gain me 10-15.
The forged 347s I have seen typically do dyno about 20 rwhp less than their factory GM equivalents, so I guess it is what it is. I think it's the huge valve reliefs and the fact that they are zero deck pistons, not out of the hole like GMs.
Especially with the torque and tip in throttle response (although that has a lot to do with tuning)...
06-25-2013, 03:24 PM
#89
I agree. These heads will work great with forced induction. I'd love to see a max effort stock bottom end 347 build with these. I'd love to know how they would compare to the "beloved" TFS 215's or "AFR 205's" that everyone used in their 500 or bust combo's...
Especially with the torque and tip in throttle response (although that has a lot to do with tuning)...
Especially with the torque and tip in throttle response (although that has a lot to do with tuning)...
The c5 driveline isn't that strong, so I want to keep it in the 600 wheel range, which should be easy as hell considering my current setup. I am sure the ls3 heads will work really nice with a blower. Their downside, however, is the thin deck. But if someones goal is like 800-900 anyway, you are going to be using thick deck aftermarket heads. I just wanted to put heads on so I can make the 600 without spinning the blower hard.
06-25-2013, 06:51 PM
#90
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Got the results in.
They were just as advertised and they picked up 45 rwhp and 35 rwtq over my 241 heads and ls6 intake manifold. I am pretty happy with that considering they are just the as cast versions. This was performed on the same dyno, so I know the gain is true. Compression ratio was the same before/after, so the gain came from flow.
What is puzzling is why my numbers are so low though. Cam only with the 241s, I only made 340. Adding the ls3 heads/intake pumped me up to 385.
I am going to get to the bottom of it. The bottom end just seems too healthy to be spitting out poor numbers. It revs smooth and does not burn oil. I think it is either the cam is ground wrong, or my torque tube and rear are eating the power. My rear whines like crazy and my torque tube's bearings are shot.
I am going to remedy all 3 and see if I can get back on the dyno. I am putting in an AI 230/238 cam now.
But the important part is that the heads gained me 45 rwhp, so money well spent in that regard! In my experience, that is pretty much what any head swap is going to gain you anyway. I have seen anywhere between 40-50ish rwhp over stock 241s when swapping heads on an ls1, so these definitely work. You may see 65+ with ported cathedrals and a fast, but that comes at a greater cost. These are a good budget option.
They were just as advertised and they picked up 45 rwhp and 35 rwtq over my 241 heads and ls6 intake manifold. I am pretty happy with that considering they are just the as cast versions. This was performed on the same dyno, so I know the gain is true. Compression ratio was the same before/after, so the gain came from flow.
What is puzzling is why my numbers are so low though. Cam only with the 241s, I only made 340. Adding the ls3 heads/intake pumped me up to 385.
I am going to get to the bottom of it. The bottom end just seems too healthy to be spitting out poor numbers. It revs smooth and does not burn oil. I think it is either the cam is ground wrong, or my torque tube and rear are eating the power. My rear whines like crazy and my torque tube's bearings are shot.
I am going to remedy all 3 and see if I can get back on the dyno. I am putting in an AI 230/238 cam now.
But the important part is that the heads gained me 45 rwhp, so money well spent in that regard! In my experience, that is pretty much what any head swap is going to gain you anyway. I have seen anywhere between 40-50ish rwhp over stock 241s when swapping heads on an ls1, so these definitely work. You may see 65+ with ported cathedrals and a fast, but that comes at a greater cost. These are a good budget option.
Great work!...Looking forward to new numbers with the better matched cam and some new MPH/ET's when you get it to the track.
-Ryan
06-25-2013, 07:01 PM
#91
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Hey Ryan. I'd like to do the stage II on a set of LSA's (or maybe even LS9 castings if I can get my block modified for 12mm head bolts locally). I would supply my own castings. Can you do the hollow stemmed intake valves turned down for the smaller seats? If so how much would that add to the cost?
06-26-2013, 09:56 AM
#92
Hey Michael, thanks for posting your impressive gains!! And to think you made such a power gain with a small(ish) cam and factory exhaust manifolds is awesome and proved the heads did what they were designed to do.
Great work!...Looking forward to new numbers with the better matched cam and some new MPH/ET's when you get it to the track.
-Ryan
Great work!...Looking forward to new numbers with the better matched cam and some new MPH/ET's when you get it to the track.
-Ryan
Gonna try to get it back on the dyno with my stock rear end and after I fix the torque tube. I can feel the car dragging when I let off the throttle like the brakes are applied, so I think that is sucking up quite a bit of power on the dyno. The important part is the gain though, which is why I am happy I did a before/after.
06-26-2013, 03:39 PM
#93
What impresses me with the dyno numbers you posted above (these LS3 heads/intake combo versus 241 heads/ls6 intake combo) is the gains you made with the SAME CAM used in both tests. Obviously, the cam is not best suited for the LS3 heads/intake combo, so there is even more left in the combo with a cam matched for the LS3 heads/intake combo.
06-26-2013, 05:20 PM
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Ryan, I'm glad to see Ballistic offering cams to go with these heads now. From looking over the cam offerings you have, it looks like the LSL/LXL lobes are what you recommend for the small bores. This seems to make sense due to the added lift they give you. it's a great plus that they are a stable lobe for valvetrain durability.
I look forward to seeing some results of Ballistic's H/C combos!
I look forward to seeing some results of Ballistic's H/C combos!
06-27-2013, 03:04 PM
#95
What impresses me with the dyno numbers you posted above (these LS3 heads/intake combo versus 241 heads/ls6 intake combo) is the gains you made with the SAME CAM used in both tests. Obviously, the cam is not best suited for the LS3 heads/intake combo, so there is even more left in the combo with a cam matched for the LS3 heads/intake combo.
I just googled and saw which cams were working for ls3 cars. Anything in the low 230 range on the intake with a decent exhaust split of 6-8 seemed to put out great numbers. Going with just .600 lift to spare the valvetrain though. I threw it on a 115+4 to keep the overlap a bit lower as well.
08-15-2013, 03:04 PM
#96
I threw an AI 230/239 .600 .600 115+4 in.
Also, turned out my differential was destroyed. I am sure that was eating power on the dyno. It felt like the car had the brakes applied when you were driving it. Stock 3.42s are back in now. God so much better without that gear whine. Note to self, never trust anyone selling a used differential that says it doesn't whine.
My pac 1218s are floating with this new cam, so I am putting on BTR duals and I am going to re dyno.
Hoping for 420 through my catted ls7 manifolds.
Also, turned out my differential was destroyed. I am sure that was eating power on the dyno. It felt like the car had the brakes applied when you were driving it. Stock 3.42s are back in now. God so much better without that gear whine. Note to self, never trust anyone selling a used differential that says it doesn't whine.
My pac 1218s are floating with this new cam, so I am putting on BTR duals and I am going to re dyno.
Hoping for 420 through my catted ls7 manifolds.
08-16-2013, 10:54 PM
#98
08-17-2013, 07:55 PM
#99
Measured spring height @ 1.74-1.76.
Good thing I measured, because that meant I was only .01 from coil bind on my pac 1218s. Good thing I caught that before something bad happened. It pulls hard after 6k now.
Getting that itch to go to the track.
Good thing I measured, because that meant I was only .01 from coil bind on my pac 1218s. Good thing I caught that before something bad happened. It pulls hard after 6k now.
Getting that itch to go to the track
.
09-04-2013, 01:26 PM
#100
Got a pass in.
Ran 12.4 @ 119 with a horrible 2.2 60' right off the highway in 80 degree air on street tires. You figure with some seat time (and a cool down), even in the same air, I should be able to hit 12.0s at 120-121 on street tires.
In my experience a bad 60' not only kills ET, but it kills MPH too because of the spin/bog/spin scenario that occurs. I only got one pass because I broke my damn valve stem trying to take off the seized valve step cap with a pair of pliers, so my day was done quickly.
Pretty happy considering this car only made 340 rwhp before the heads and I am still on LS7 manifolds. I can see it trapping in the 122-123 range in cold air. If it does, then it will only be about 2 mph off my old setup which was more radical. Catless headers, 11:1, etc.
Ran 12.4 @ 119 with a horrible 2.2 60' right off the highway in 80 degree air on street tires. You figure with some seat time (and a cool down), even in the same air, I should be able to hit 12.0s at 120-121 on street tires.
In my experience a bad 60' not only kills ET, but it kills MPH too because of the spin/bog/spin scenario that occurs. I only got one pass because I broke my damn valve stem trying to take off the seized valve step cap with a pair of pliers, so my day was done quickly.
Pretty happy considering this car only made 340 rwhp before the heads and I am still on LS7 manifolds. I can see it trapping in the 122-123 range in cold air. If it does, then it will only be about 2 mph off my old setup which was more radical. Catless headers, 11:1, etc.