C4VetteLS1

BTW: If you dyno a car with less than 1/8th-1/4 tank it drops alot of cars into "Low Octane Timing Table"

So if it was noticed it was low on gas, then i always make a customer get gas so it wont accidentally go below the point and drop into the other octane table (and immediately lose 10-20 hp)

C4VetteLS1

Also Tony has always had that nitrous kit on the car, hes a old school street/drag racer here in california.... and that car has always had 100-150 pills in it...

why disrespect LG Motorports & Airflow Research who actively supports this board and is helping get new products to the LS1 market with un BASED claims with only rumor or speculation.

YOU SHOULD ALL BE AHSHAMED OF YOURSELFS. If you find any FACT to base those nitrous opinions on, them state them. Till then everyone STFU.

BurnOut

iTrader: (1)

Holy $#!+, I give up. Some of ya'll won't believe a particular set of numbers until they happen on YOUR car... and even then, you'll believe them, but no one else will; because it's nothing like anything they've ever seen.

When someone posts up results like this, why don't ya'll take a "wait and see" attitude instead of looking for reasons (grasping at straws??) to ring the bullshit bell?? If you don't believe in the AFR's, fine... don't buy them. Whatever. But unless YOU (not your friend, not your uncle, not your uncle's friend, etc...) try them out and get poor numbers, why don't you back off?? C4VetteLS1 is right... both AFR and LGM are stand-up operations; my personal experience with both of them is why I can make that claim.

I normally don't chime in on discussions like this, but for ****'s sake, people... stuff like this is why Tony Mamo (from AFR) has been forbidden to post on the forums. He is a really knowledgeable guy who none of us can talk to (very easily), because some people are on his *** claiming that his numbers are inflated as soon as he posts up.

If you want to disbelieve, then please disbelieve quietly... unless you have personal experience to back up your disbelief. Who cares where Tony and Guy (AFR guys) ran off to when they left LGM for that 15-20 minutes... maybe they went to buy gas, maybe one of them had to call his wife (cell phone reception at LGM is typically really poor for some reason), maybe they didn't like Lou's cooking and wanted to grab something to eat... that's not the point. Really, what would they (AFR) have to gain from faking their numbers (to the tune of even a small 50 shot)?? You don't think that the first people out there that came up at least 50 hp shy of their numbers would absolutely TANK their product?? AFR has been in business for a long time... longer than many of us have been turning wrenches, in fact (they used to be Brownfield Cylinder Heads, IIRC); what some of you are suggesting would be a business tactic that I wouldn't be surprised to see employed by some fly-by-night shop, not a well-respected aftermarket supplier who goes to the trouble to cast their own heads. Would you all be this skeptical if it were Edelbrock coming out with the new heads instead of AFR?? How about Holley?? Brodix?? Is it really that difficult to believe that a more efficiently shaped port could result in big numbers with a small cam??

Does the average person on these forums really have that poor of a grasp on the operation of internal combustion engines where the concept of high port velocity escapes them?? I'll be the first to admit that I don't know everything (I'll never live it down if my girlfriend reads this...), but damn, people... settle down. Either nut up and buy the parts to see for yourself or be patient waiting for results. Me, I don't have the cash to play guinnea pig, so I'll wait for someone else to put up some numbers before I step up.

Out of curiosity, how many of you doubters would still be doubting if the numbers put up by the AFR car were 200 RWHP below where they are??

EDIT: From talking with Guy (AFR rep/part owner) at LGM, compression was right around 11:1; he told me that they took a set of their off-the-shelf 205's, decked 'em .030", and went down the road. Regarding the lean A/F ratio, the chamber of the AFR's is noticeably different, even compared to the LS6 head (not to mention the LS1). I don't know enough about combustion chamber design to say one chamber is better than another, but I know that it IS possible for a more efficient chamber to help prevent detonation. That being said, it's POSSIBLE that the AFR-equipped motors can live with leaner A/F ratios (13:1 A/F is not a magic number; it's a guidline) w/ out detonating; this fact COULD be part of the reason that car makes the numbers it does (leaner (to a point) A/F ratios will often make more power if detonation can be kept at bay).

C4VetteLS1

<Bravo> agreed

Ravenous T\A

iTrader: (12)

Every guy there was skeptical when they saw the Noid, painted black and never mentioned when they told everyone what the car had on it, They probably didn't spary, but jeez atleast be honest with the people who where all watching this and say " will unhook it to prove were not using it". there were 10 dallas cowboys players there, one even yelled out " You sprayin on this car"!! right then I would have walked over, unplugged the damn noid for everyone to see so there would be NOOO way that people thought that I was sprayin. I have seen many claims on these boards of high numbers on dyno's, then I also see how people seem not be able to duplicate those numbers. look at all the promises the LSX intake had, sure the numbers are good, but not a super fantastic as they claimed they were gonna be, same goes with the Ling LS1 intake, great numbers from them, then people got them and learned about heatsoak. I just think AFR next time needs just bring a car thats a test vehicle, not his street racer with hidden nitrous and all the little tricks like electric pump,and a short belt, cause when you showing off a new product to potential buyers you dont want anybody to think your hiding something, especially after they point it out!!

Pro Stock John

iTrader: (34)

Those aren't nitrous graphs, I think the naysayers need to look at some nitrous graphs someday and look at how different they are.

I don't doubt that those guys looked for every bit of power for that dyno session, after all, lots of folks do that on here, in fact most do.

AFR LT1 heads are hard to touch when ported by an expert, they are usually the best. I expect that AFR LS1 heads will be the same if folks are willing to pay what it takes to get a set of them ported by one of the top guys in the field.

SScam68

iTrader: (20)

Problem is you keep implying the system was used when in all honesty you don't even know if they did or didn't. Insomniac already stated he didn't "hear" the system come on and the dyno graph does not show any indication of nitrous being used. Most shops don't even go WOT until 3k RPM. So because you think you see a spike at 2800 when its painfully obvious they didn't go WOT until 3.5K is weak on your part.

Do you honestly realize what your doing? Your bringing into question the integrity of a company all because you think they used nitrous to inflate the dyno numbers. You stand nothing to lose but they have a reputation to uphold, and a very good one in general. IF the heads do flop, possible but highly unlikely, with more testing it will be pretty apparent.

I even posted the engine dyno numbers from the Vette mag. If you can put 2 and 2 together its pretty obvious there is a strong correlation between the mag #'s and the numbers being put to the floor from Tony M's Vette, even through the IRS, minus the LSX intake. Look for the mag, they have a writeup on the testing procedures that were used, there was no mention of nitrous.

There is just to much trouble and $$$$$ at stake to have it all thrown in the garbage by and individual who saw a nitrous noid and thinks it was used.

99 Black Bird T/A

iTrader: (4)

I'll wait until I see what others get with the AFR's LS1 heads, I'm starting to think a set of TEA ported AFR's for the T/A would be a really nice mod sometime next year. I can even keep my SRP 224 cam which should be a great cam for these heads if they deliver.

As for Tony M. not being able to post anymore, I know I miss what Tony M. added to the board. Tony promptly replied to a couple of emails I sent him (this was several months ago) we had a good discussion.

TILEMAN

I have a-taped with less than a 1/4 and 1/8 tank of gas and never went into the low octane table.

C4VetteLS1

Ive had several cars drop into the low octane setup when they run low on gas...i almost think its random as some dont ever seem to do it, and some do.

InsomZ

iTrader: (1)

i only posted the results and all possible variables so that everyone can make their own conclusion.

I know i have a mustang friend w/ a 5.0 that swears by AFR.. who orginally told me to check out these 205cc heads.. like i said they will be proven to me once i see the norm before and after dyno's if they can produce 30rwhp w/ a setup like mine. I would spend the cash $.

i have nothing against AFR and don't mean to hurt their business I just wanted fellow LS1 owners to know there are variables that could of skewed the results. Since 88rwhp over the norm for that cam on stock heads, is quite a bit. i've never seen heads make a gain like that.

Ravenous T\A

iTrader: (12)

Well if AFR heads can give me a near 100hp gain with small cam/intake/ and a open cut-out I will buy them. I just didn't like the fact that Lou on a another board said that the car did 13.7 AFR when we have witnesses who saw 14.4-14.7 AFR. But I now have been schooled on what a Nitrous Dyno looks like, yes there was only a mild Torque spike and really no HP spike, I was just fixed on the TQ spike at 2800RPM's, when I should have focused on Both, so I ADMIT I WAS WRONG that they were spraying, But I am just saying I dont like it when companies use the short cuts to get the most gain, like E-pumps, short belts, no pwr steering, and other tricks people use to inflate the numbers. If thats fine with everyone else, great more power to ya. But before I go out and spend $2500 on a set of heads I wanna see honest numbers, no short cuts, a true everyday driver, pwr steering, and A/C. But hey I know that might be wishful thinking. And for the earlier AFR dyno numbers from that mag of 501hp, I think I saw that mag and that was with it on an engine dyno? but I can't remember

z-ya

iTrader: (1)

Burnout you got it right.Velocity is largly ignored,the only part of the flow chart they look at is at peak lift, and they wouldn't know a proper short turn radius if it took a left in front of them.

Elysian

Is it possible they were running race gas? How much gain will switching from 91 octane to 103 or 110 usually account for (assuming they tuned for it)?

Ravenous T\A

iTrader: (12)

I think I remember he said he filled up at Shell, we have 92 to 93 octane here in the DFW area

Pewter'00Z28

iTrader: (2)

How about to end the rumors, just redyno it on the spray. When will this thing see the track? I don't care if my car puts down 300rwhp if it runs hard thats all that matters.

BADFNZ

iTrader: (19)

No way in hell they were spraying on that run. I'd question the cam specs before I questioned the N2O. 468 through cats and a catback is unheard of on a stock cubed LSX so either something is up or these heads have lived up to the hype. I'll go with the latter here unless I see concrete evidence.

Chicago Z06

there was no spray used on the graph posted... tq curve was most likley due to timing.. notice there was very little hp fluctuation with the tq.. with N2O no matter if it was a 25 shot it would have shown more of a spike.... unless they sprayed it from the punch...lol.... should have asked them to do a spray pass to see the difference...

the gains are there but these heads are not for everyone.. i think they are going after the spray/ boosted crowd more due to the thick deck heights. and a set of 225's heavily massaged... should put up some pretty impressive numbers with the big CI guys... but we will see...

masterdill

iTrader: (2)

Progressive dry shot?

With all the shady **** going on I wouldn't put it past them. Especially with the amount of money they stand to make even if a small amount of people (mainly rich corvette owners) buy their hands.

At 2k profit minimum each, if they sell only 100 sets thats 200k, only 1000 thats 2 mil...

The first time someone mentioned the "hidden" nitrous kit, they should of immediately disconnected it in some way. The whole AFR head situation is extremely shady if you ask me.

kumar75150

when the **** are these things supposed to come out? i'm getting tired of waiting

why not take the heads off tony's car and put them on another car that has some other heads? **** i bet we could raise enough money for the swap or one of the vendors would do it for free

I'm just waiting for results from ANYONE other than Tony's car.