TSP Magic Stick v.3 Dyno
03-16-2005, 12:33 PM
#21
Originally Posted by ws.6kid
What could it be?? fuel injectors? I put NGK TR6 cause im planning to spray pretty soon. Supposedly my freind gained 9 RWHP from a 3:73 gear swap in a cammed ls1??
This sux, hopefully I can find out what is wrong, well at least my tuner gave me dynotunes for life.
This sux, hopefully I can find out what is wrong, well at least my tuner gave me dynotunes for life.
I'VE TUNED SEVERAL CARS AND SOME LIKE TO RUN A LITTE RICH.
03-16-2005, 02:10 PM
#22
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Hugger1975, how do you figure, he made 400hp, you made 383hp? Maybe yours was SAE and his was STD or ACtual but..? He didn't have all the bolt ons either. I think his is right where it should be. MAYBE a little different tuning would gain him another 5-10hp, MAYBE but his air fuel ratio looked pretty good and his timing was setup for nitrous so...what would you expect? If the timing is say at 23-24 degrees as opposed to 27-28 degrees, he is giving up 5+hp right there or so.
Another BIG point I wanted to make is that you guys that are dyno tuning on the shop's dyno that sold you the parts, you MAY not be getting everything you think you are getting. This is a big deal in the streetbike world. You take your ride to a shop and they promise you X amount of HP for X amount of dollars, the customer wants that HP no matter what, and he WILL get it, no matter what. All you guys making the big HP on Futral's dyno with Futral's cam and tuning, have you ever dynoed on another dyno besides their's just for comparison? Or even TSP's for that matter. No doubt these guys are in the market to sell parts and more importantly HP. Every one of these vendors promises the big gains with "their" parts so...take advertisements and dyno numbers on "their" dynos with a grain of salt.
Another BIG point I wanted to make is that you guys that are dyno tuning on the shop's dyno that sold you the parts, you MAY not be getting everything you think you are getting. This is a big deal in the streetbike world. You take your ride to a shop and they promise you X amount of HP for X amount of dollars, the customer wants that HP no matter what, and he WILL get it, no matter what. All you guys making the big HP on Futral's dyno with Futral's cam and tuning, have you ever dynoed on another dyno besides their's just for comparison? Or even TSP's for that matter. No doubt these guys are in the market to sell parts and more importantly HP. Every one of these vendors promises the big gains with "their" parts so...take advertisements and dyno numbers on "their" dynos with a grain of salt.
03-16-2005, 05:16 PM
#23
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I have seen other peoples dyno sheets with the magic stick 3 and the highest was 427 RWHP and 385 RWTQ the lowest someone had was like 411 RWHP and like 375 RWTQ. All they have over me mod wise is a ported TB, pulley, and X-pipe.
If im making 383 RWHP and 350 RWTQ SAE corrected there is definatley something wrong with my car...
The weird thing is i beat my friends 402 rwhp TA when i was untuned by half a car. The car feels alot beter now though, its all over the place at 6k+ and im running MT ET street radials.
If im making 383 RWHP and 350 RWTQ SAE corrected there is definatley something wrong with my car...
The weird thing is i beat my friends 402 rwhp TA when i was untuned by half a car. The car feels alot beter now though, its all over the place at 6k+ and im running MT ET street radials.
03-16-2005, 06:18 PM
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Originally Posted by ws.6kid
I have seen other peoples dyno sheets with the magic stick 3 and the highest was 427 RWHP and 385 RWTQ the lowest someone had was like 411 RWHP and like 375 RWTQ. All they have over me mod wise is a ported TB, pulley, and X-pipe.
If im making 383 RWHP and 350 RWTQ SAE corrected there is definatley something wrong with my car...
The weird thing is i beat my friends 402 rwhp TA when i was untuned by half a car. The car feels alot beter now though, its all over the place at 6k+ and im running MT ET street radials.
If im making 383 RWHP and 350 RWTQ SAE corrected there is definatley something wrong with my car...
The weird thing is i beat my friends 402 rwhp TA when i was untuned by half a car. The car feels alot beter now though, its all over the place at 6k+ and im running MT ET street radials.
03-16-2005, 07:08 PM
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if you dynoed on ET streets that would lower your horsepower number
BTW I was at G-Force today and they dynoed a car that had heads and a 224/226 something cam, it came in making 387hp and after they tweaked it, it was at 394hp. They did not build this car, it was just a revision to someone else's tuning but the point is, it didn't make 400hp with heads and cam so.. It appeared to have all the bolt ons that I could tell except maybe a pulley.
03-16-2005, 09:16 PM
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Well I have MT ET street Radials not ET Streets, dont know if that matters or not. Im going to get it retuned tommorow and see wtf is going on i should be making at least 400 rwhp SAE. 
03-16-2005, 09:23 PM
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Originally Posted by JakeFusion
What I've noticed is that the LS1 heads, no matter the casting, aren't going to make you more than 400rwhp with any cam. If you rip those heads off and put stock LS6, you'll gain 20rwhp.
Why?
Airflow. The stock LS1 heads don't flow well enough at the upper rpms to support higher horsepower. Open the intake for a 224 duration, or a 237, it doesn't matter, only so much air per second can flow at a certain volume and certain velocity. I'm not saying a cam of that size is designed for a 400+cid engine, but it needs heads that flow a certain cfm at a certain velocity to make a certain horsepower. Usually, you need a bigger bore to get that, or something like the AFR 225s...
Bottom line, get some better heads on that thing. AFR 205s don't even flow enough for the air of a 346cid engine over 5k for it to be worthwhile for a 237 cam to replace a 224 cam. Of course, a 224 cam and 205s are gonna flow a lot more air, and thus make more power than a 237 with LS1 heads. The MS3 & 205s probably won't make much more, because I've seen how the G5X3 doesn't make a whole lot more than the smaller cams with similar setups. G5X3 of course has 234 degrees intake duration.
Oh, and all of that pertains to the Dyno. The track is an entirely different beast...
Why?
Airflow. The stock LS1 heads don't flow well enough at the upper rpms to support higher horsepower. Open the intake for a 224 duration, or a 237, it doesn't matter, only so much air per second can flow at a certain volume and certain velocity. I'm not saying a cam of that size is designed for a 400+cid engine, but it needs heads that flow a certain cfm at a certain velocity to make a certain horsepower. Usually, you need a bigger bore to get that, or something like the AFR 225s...
Bottom line, get some better heads on that thing. AFR 205s don't even flow enough for the air of a 346cid engine over 5k for it to be worthwhile for a 237 cam to replace a 224 cam. Of course, a 224 cam and 205s are gonna flow a lot more air, and thus make more power than a 237 with LS1 heads. The MS3 & 205s probably won't make much more, because I've seen how the G5X3 doesn't make a whole lot more than the smaller cams with similar setups. G5X3 of course has 234 degrees intake duration.
Oh, and all of that pertains to the Dyno. The track is an entirely different beast...
Actually I made 411 with stock 241 castings with all the mods in my sig minus the n2o. I could.ve made more if I would have went to the limiter but I cut it off at 6200. Limiter is 6800
03-16-2005, 10:36 PM
#28
Originally Posted by TRMIN8R
Actually I made 411 with stock 241 castings with all the mods in my sig minus the n2o. I could.ve made more if I would have went to the limiter but I cut it off at 6200. Limiter is 6800
If anything, it proves that if you give the MS3 a little bit more airflow, it responds by giving you a few more ponies.
Most people who slap T-Rex's don't see any more than 400rwhp either. Of course, a TR224 that attained 400rwhp isn't going to beat it at the track, but it will be better for the street. Once you open up the engine a bit, the TR224 becomes a bit of a bottleneck compared to a larger cam, but that takes quite a bit of opening.
03-16-2005, 10:53 PM
#29
i was going to go with ms3 but every post i read lead me to get a futral cam, glad i did. and i dont know about the flow of the afr heads that you are talking about because i have read some big numbers out of the afr heads. there was a post of a g5x3 with bolt ons and a 90/90 set up on afr heads making 480 something rwhp, if they didnt flow that good i dont think people would be seeing high numbers like this with them
03-17-2005, 12:22 AM
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Originally Posted by WS6FirebirdTA00
i was going to go with ms3 but every post i read lead me to get a futral cam, glad i did. and i dont know about the flow of the afr heads that you are talking about because i have read some big numbers out of the afr heads. there was a post of a g5x3 with bolt ons and a 90/90 set up on afr heads making 480 something rwhp, if they didnt flow that good i dont think people would be seeing high numbers like this with them
03-17-2005, 02:35 PM
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From all of the research I have done, I have to say that FMS cams do make better torque, and provide better drivablity than the TSP cams. The #'s seem to be more consistent on the dyno too. (Read non-shop cars) 
03-17-2005, 03:16 PM
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Remember, all dynos are different. I only dynoed about 377rwhp with the 231/237 without all the bolt-ons on a mail order tune. Once I get my TB ported and my pulley installed I'll get a custom tune and hopefully get close to 400rwhp. Get your TB ported and get an underdrive pulley. They aren't rip-offs. Besides, I don't care about SAE, I only care about what my car does where I am. 
03-20-2005, 07:57 PM
#35
Originally Posted by Vortech5300
Hugger1975, how do you figure, he made 400hp, you made 383hp? Maybe yours was SAE and his was STD or ACtual but..? He didn't have all the bolt ons either. I think his is right where it should be. MAYBE a little different tuning would gain him another 5-10hp, MAYBE but his air fuel ratio looked pretty good and his timing was setup for nitrous so...what would you expect? If the timing is say at 23-24 degrees as opposed to 27-28 degrees, he is giving up 5+hp right there or so.
Another BIG point I wanted to make is that you guys that are dyno tuning on the shop's dyno that sold you the parts, you MAY not be getting everything you think you are getting. This is a big deal in the streetbike world. You take your ride to a shop and they promise you X amount of HP for X amount of dollars, the customer wants that HP no matter what, and he WILL get it, no matter what. All you guys making the big HP on Futral's dyno with Futral's cam and tuning, have you ever dynoed on another dyno besides their's just for comparison? Or even TSP's for that matter. No doubt these guys are in the market to sell parts and more importantly HP. Every one of these vendors promises the big gains with "their" parts so...take advertisements and dyno numbers on "their" dynos with a grain of salt.
Another BIG point I wanted to make is that you guys that are dyno tuning on the shop's dyno that sold you the parts, you MAY not be getting everything you think you are getting. This is a big deal in the streetbike world. You take your ride to a shop and they promise you X amount of HP for X amount of dollars, the customer wants that HP no matter what, and he WILL get it, no matter what. All you guys making the big HP on Futral's dyno with Futral's cam and tuning, have you ever dynoed on another dyno besides their's just for comparison? Or even TSP's for that matter. No doubt these guys are in the market to sell parts and more importantly HP. Every one of these vendors promises the big gains with "their" parts so...take advertisements and dyno numbers on "their" dynos with a grain of salt.
some very good points to think about.
i need to get me a dyno out here to see.
hmmmm
and on the record when i said more power, i meant tq......
03-25-2005, 09:23 AM
#36
Our MS3 camshaft will consistently pick up 60-65 RWHP with ALL OF THE BOLT-ONS in place. This is what we tell customers, and I can safely say that we have never claimed "monster torque" from our MS3 camshaft. It was designed for the guys wanting max power. Dyno numbers will vary. Our Dynojet reads a consistent 8 RWHP less than another one close to us. Anytime someone asks us about dyno or track numbers, we will tell them what type of gains should be seen, not what it will run or make. Every setup varies, and you cannot compare 420+ RWHP dyno graphs of cars with all of the bolt-ons in place against a car that still has a stock throttle body, stock pulley, etc. Adding 60-65 RWHP consistently is a pretty awesome gain in my book! We always encourage customers to have their cars dynoed before the cam swap because your final numbers don't mean anything if you have no idea where you started. If the car is putting down 340 RWHP before the cam swap, then 400-405 RWHP is going to be expected. If it is doing 355 RWHP before the cam swap, then 415-420 RWHP will be expected. There are many factors that affect dyno numbers. The key is dynoing before and after with nothing changed but the camshaft and tune. That will show the true gains. Different tire compounds, sizes, etc. can affect dyno numbers greatly. We've seen a 20 RWHP difference going from an ET Street to a true street radial. We've had many cammed cars come in with other shops' cams installed and put down great and not-so-great numbers. That doesn't mean that the cam isn't any good. It simply means that the car has not been setup to make the best power possible.
Feel free to call or e-mail me at trevor@texas-speed.com with any questions or concerns. The key with any cam swap is selecting the right one that is going to work well with YOUR setup and YOUR goals in mind.
WS6FirebirdTA00 - I've sent you an e-mail. I would like to know what happened.
Trevor
Texas Speed & Performance
Feel free to call or e-mail me at trevor@texas-speed.com with any questions or concerns. The key with any cam swap is selecting the right one that is going to work well with YOUR setup and YOUR goals in mind.
WS6FirebirdTA00 - I've sent you an e-mail. I would like to know what happened.
Trevor
Texas Speed & Performance
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