Swapped AFR 205's for Dart 225's, gained 13 rwhp and same torque, 443 rwhp
#21
TECH Regular
iTrader: (8)
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Central Florida
Posts: 444
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by JEB99TA
John, since you quoted me, I will gladly respond. I never said Dart's were not good quality so stop putitng word sin my mouth. You get what you pay for and I have the freedom to choose AFR's over Dart's, so, I prefer a more expensive head like the AFR's. My choice was made by looking at every flow chart and number on this board for my setup. I feel your heads aren't as good as AFR's ... so what?
And I haven't said a darn thing about one single problem or issue with your heads. So, quote the guy who said it. Don't put that **** directly under my quote to make me look bad just because you're pissed off that I prefer AFR's.
And I haven't said a darn thing about one single problem or issue with your heads. So, quote the guy who said it. Don't put that **** directly under my quote to make me look bad just because you're pissed off that I prefer AFR's.
So why not sell the afr's and get a set of ET they cost more If the statement of YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR holds true then the ET's must be hands down a better head then the AFR's
#22
TECH Addict
iTrader: (32)
Originally Posted by ChevPower
So why not sell the afr's and get a set of ET they cost more If the statement of YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR holds true then the ET's must be hands down a better head then the AFR's
As I stated, I got what I paid for ... for MY SETUP. Apparently, you jumped to conclusions to instigate my reply to Dart331stroker. Any more brilliant questions?
#23
On The Tree
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Suburbs of Detroit
Posts: 102
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Pissed off
Originally Posted by JEB99TA
John, since you quoted me, I will gladly respond. I never said Dart's were not good quality so stop putitng word sin my mouth. You get what you pay for and I have the freedom to choose AFR's over Dart's, so, I prefer a more expensive head like the AFR's. My choice was made by looking at every flow chart and number on this board for my setup. I feel your heads aren't as good as AFR's ... so what?
And I haven't said a darn thing about one single problem or issue with your heads. So, quote the guy who said it. Don't put that **** directly under my quote to make me look bad just because you're pissed off that I prefer AFR's.
And I haven't said a darn thing about one single problem or issue with your heads. So, quote the guy who said it. Don't put that **** directly under my quote to make me look bad just because you're pissed off that I prefer AFR's.
But you have your choice as do others, I have supported both AFR, and ET on here before, and do now. Buy what you wish, no harm to me.
Actually not pissed off in the least, there are more than enough LS engines around to support both Dart, AFR, ET, World, TEA, Patriot, And anybody else who wants to jump into the mix. I made the statement that somewhere else on here posted about the other part, that is why there is another paragraph, I am not going to spend my day quoting people, I get paid to sell parts, I volunteer my time to answer questions on here, for FREE!!
Ah yes flow numbers, some people just dont get it, walk into any professional engine racers shop, Anderson, Gibbs, Johnson, DEI, Childress, Hendricks, they all use wet flow testing equipment people, when in the world will people learn?? Flow benchs and dynos of any sort can lie to you, give you bad information, look on here for the post that has the article from Darrin Morgan from Reher Morrison. You will learn alot about flow benches, and if you have some time to do some serious reading, go to www.rehermorrison.com and read flow bench fallacies, this will blow a hole in anybodys flow bench testing means something theory!!! Another great place to get an education about real world, and how engines make power, go over to speedtalk and read some of the very educational post about flow, dynos, chassis dynos, etc. you will learn alot about how little flow numbers help.
Example, we already have had a guy buy our heads from a head porting shop, that claimed great numbers, the motor is a turd, blames us! First off not our fault, but hey send them back and let us look at them. We flow tested them and they were better on the flow bench than they were when shipped, well we wet flowed the heads, and they were junk, valve job and port work they did ruined them. The fuel wasnt shearing off the seats right, they were turbulant as heck, and the runner shape sucked so bad when fuel went around the short turn and entered the chamber it was washing out the spark plug. So in this case his great flowing $2000.00 set of heads were junk! Worthless, made less power than the motor would have had he bought the heads out of the box! Porting something and getting better flow numbers doesnt mean more power!!
I could spend all day with examples, and proof, but this board like so many others will argue and again I ask myself, why do I try to help people who just want to argue when they have nothing to back up their arguements!!??
John
Last edited by Dart331Stroker; 04-14-2006 at 04:14 PM.
#24
On The Tree
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Detroit - suburbs
Posts: 105
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Wow. I'm surprised how quick the AFR cheerleaders were to bash someones post. It seems that it was only because it was said more power was made with the Dart head than the previous AFR's. But it would help if Stang90GT50 could post the graphs!
just my 2 cents!
just my 2 cents!
#25
Originally Posted by Abdullah
i would say some ( 205 and 225 ) AFR heads rwhp are high and some other are some what low becuase of the heads them selfs how they were casted
( and also maybe how they were CNC'd from AFR) for that hand porting them is the best way to equalize them in rwhp.
( and also maybe how they were CNC'd from AFR) for that hand porting them is the best way to equalize them in rwhp.
#26
TECH Addict
iTrader: (32)
John, I agree with about everything you said. For what they are, Dart's are good. I just wanted a CNC blueprinter finished head and did not wnat to take the time or money to have a set 'worked up'. Some folks prefer that route ... just not me.
Flow numbers don't mean much when they come from the companies who make them. I think you might agree on that. Independent, non-biased flow numbers are what I made my selection from. I hear you're coming out with a CNC head and I wish you success with it. The market is certainly there.
My apologies if I came off a little harsh. I didn't feel you quoted me correctly. It's all good as far as I'm concerned and I hope you can feel the same.
Flow numbers don't mean much when they come from the companies who make them. I think you might agree on that. Independent, non-biased flow numbers are what I made my selection from. I hear you're coming out with a CNC head and I wish you success with it. The market is certainly there.
My apologies if I came off a little harsh. I didn't feel you quoted me correctly. It's all good as far as I'm concerned and I hope you can feel the same.
#27
Originally Posted by Dart331Stroker
As far as not being as good, for a non ported head, that is pretty competitive with a cnc ported head, costing only $640.00 each for an assembly, i think they hold their own.
Way to go Dart for driving down the cost of quality heads for those of us without bottomless pockets! Leaves more money for beer.
#28
TECH Fanatic
iTrader: (3)
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Bensalem, Pa, now montreal, Quebec
Posts: 1,162
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
darts have i think when tested have been a real nice head for the money and very comparative to other cnc heads out. Im just glad there are so many head options out right now! Great time(well besides gas prices) to own an lsx vehicle!
#29
On The Tree
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Suburbs of Detroit
Posts: 102
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Afr
Originally Posted by Abdullah
i would say some ( 205 and 225 ) AFR heads rwhp are high and some other are some what low becuase of the heads them selfs how they were casted
( and also maybe how they were CNC'd from AFR) for that hand porting them is the best way to equalize them in rwhp.
( and also maybe how they were CNC'd from AFR) for that hand porting them is the best way to equalize them in rwhp.
Castings are the same, and unless they change the porting, chamber program, valve job, or plug location different castings made of the same material wont change the power level.
CNC machining is much more accurate, even the best head porters in this industry cant port a runner from one to the next exactly the same over and over. Machines will replicate the port work over and over. And rough finish runners will make more power as well, this you dont see on a flow bench..
So to defend AFR here, it doesnt have anything to do with the castings.
The biggest problem is the testing, comparing chassis dynos, all which have some variances, all of the machines can be manipulated by the operators. Shoddy operators might hurry and not take the time to do things right, and the car shows bad results, and one who takes his time, calibrates the machine, tunes the car etc, will show better numbers. Thats why I said back to back comparisons on the same machine with the same operator with the same calibration will show true real world comparison. But when it is all said and done, how does the thing run down the track!! Thats what we want to know!!!
John
#30
This post stinks a little for my taste. Your friend was happy with the combo you quoted with the horrendous HP and TQ numbers? How could he have been happy with that combo making 30 rwhp shy of what it should have made. Also, no dyno sheets, no previous post of his crappy numbers on the forum, no proof, just a story by a guy that's been a member since last month.
#31
Banned
Thread Starter
iTrader: (6)
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: CA
Posts: 271
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by JEB99TA
My A4 made 400 RWHP/similar TQ number. That was with a little A/F adjustment and hardly any tuning at all ... fresh motor with only 10 miles on it w/ 3600 stall (UNLOCKED)and 17" wheels.
With 3,000 miles on it now, I expect to get nearly those same numbers as your friend. Those are really weak numbers for an A6 with those mod's. I wouldn't give up my AFR 205 heads for Dart's. Meybe on a 402/408 stroker but definitely not on a small cube.
With 3,000 miles on it now, I expect to get nearly those same numbers as your friend. Those are really weak numbers for an A6 with those mod's. I wouldn't give up my AFR 205 heads for Dart's. Meybe on a 402/408 stroker but definitely not on a small cube.
The car is an automatic with 3.42 gears in it. not a M6 car. unlocked converter.
Also, I really didnt realize trying to share some results with the ls1 crowd would result in everyone talking crap. I wish I wouldn't have shared anything and wont ever in the future again. I dunno I like the results. this dynojet doesnt put up any killer #'s compared to the #'s I always see posted around here and through a automatic I thought that was a ton of power for a heads/cam on 91 octane only getting 26 degrees of timing (due to crappy ol california gas). Oh well, I will keep to myself and just read...
Last edited by stang90gt50; 04-14-2006 at 05:18 PM.
#32
10 Second Club
iTrader: (11)
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Murrieta Ca.
Posts: 1,676
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by stang90gt50
The car is an automatic with 3.42 gears in it. not a M6 car. unlocked converter.
Also, I really didnt realize trying to share some results with the ls1 crowd would result in everyone talking crap. I wish I wouldn't have shared anything and wont ever in the future again. I dunno I like the results. this dynojet doesnt put up any killer #'s compared to the #'s I always see posted around here and through a automatic I thought that was a ton of power for a heads/cam on 91 octane only getting 26 degrees of timing (due to crappy ol california gas). Oh well, I will keep to myself and just read...
Also, I really didnt realize trying to share some results with the ls1 crowd would result in everyone talking crap. I wish I wouldn't have shared anything and wont ever in the future again. I dunno I like the results. this dynojet doesnt put up any killer #'s compared to the #'s I always see posted around here and through a automatic I thought that was a ton of power for a heads/cam on 91 octane only getting 26 degrees of timing (due to crappy ol california gas). Oh well, I will keep to myself and just read...
Cali huh, where in Cali, who did the work, who's dyno, who's the tuner????????????????????????????????????????
#33
LS1 Tech Administrator
iTrader: (14)
Originally Posted by stang90gt50
The car is an automatic with 3.42 gears in it. not a M6 car. unlocked converter.
Originally Posted by stang90gt50
AFR 205's: 429.7 rwhp & 385 rwtq through 6-spd, TSP 231/237 cam, FAST 90/90, longtubes, stock rear with 3.42's, all the typical bolt ons etc tuned with HPTuners on the dyno.
#38
7 Second Club
iTrader: (7)
Originally Posted by stang90gt50
Whelp, go ahead and delete this post. This is exact reason most of the people around here doesnt affiliate themselves with this site.
last post...cya.
last post...cya.
#39
Banned
Thread Starter
iTrader: (6)
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: CA
Posts: 271
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sorry guys...im sorry you guys are ready to pick apart every discrepency you can find.
It wasnt my car, just a buddy of mines and I was trying to share some nice results with you guys.
Apparently all the AFR lovers think that if you can find a flaw in anyones story because they mistyped sometihng then its automatically BS. Ok then I ordered a set of Dart 225's today because I love the results....$1275 buys me a set of badass heads that put down great 1/4 mile times without breaking the bank....end of discussion
It wasnt my car, just a buddy of mines and I was trying to share some nice results with you guys.
Apparently all the AFR lovers think that if you can find a flaw in anyones story because they mistyped sometihng then its automatically BS. Ok then I ordered a set of Dart 225's today because I love the results....$1275 buys me a set of badass heads that put down great 1/4 mile times without breaking the bank....end of discussion
#40
TECH Apprentice
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Orlando, FL
Posts: 342
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by stang90gt50
Sorry guys...im sorry you guys are ready to pick apart every discrepency you can find.
It wasnt my car, just a buddy of mines and I was trying to share some nice results with you guys.
Apparently all the AFR lovers think that if you can find a flaw in anyones story because they mistyped sometihng then its automatically BS. Ok then I ordered a set of Dart 225's today because I love the results....$1275 buys me a set of badass heads that put down great 1/4 mile times without breaking the bank....end of discussion
It wasnt my car, just a buddy of mines and I was trying to share some nice results with you guys.
Apparently all the AFR lovers think that if you can find a flaw in anyones story because they mistyped sometihng then its automatically BS. Ok then I ordered a set of Dart 225's today because I love the results....$1275 buys me a set of badass heads that put down great 1/4 mile times without breaking the bank....end of discussion
Why do you continue to dig yourself into a hole?
According to a post you made on 3/22 you already had your Dart 225 heads.
I didn't post in this thread to be an "AFR lover." I couldn't care less about Joe Shomoe's view of a performance product.
Your post, slanted message, and lack of grammar reeks of typical troll crap. I called you on it and so did several other individuals. End of discussion.