402 with patriot heads and 238/244, 407rwhp?
05-31-2006, 06:12 PM
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402 with patriot heads and 238/244, 407rwhp? It's an LS2 402, with Patriot stage 3 heads, and a Comp XE-R 238/244 605/612, 112lsa cam. The tuner (Mike Norris, Next Level Performance) called me up to tell me the low number, and talk over what might be the problem, and what my expectations are.
The car is a C5 with stainless works 1 3/4" long tubes, but stock cats, stock h-pipe, stock mufflers. LS6 intake manifold and big K&N cone air filter, but stock air bridge, stock MAF, and stock throttle body (hand ported). It's got new NGK TR55s at the stock gap, new plug wires, and 42lb/hr injectors.
I was hoping for ~450rwhp. I figured the intake and exhuast would cost quite a bit of power, but I never expected to only have 407rwhp. I don't have the graph or any numbers besides peak hp, I'll talk to Mike again tomorrow and try to get the dyno chart. Oh, the IAT also went to -38 degrees at around 6000 rpms, which richened things up a bit, but he thinks it wouldn't have broken 415rwhp even without that as a problem. He's gonna replace the IAT sensor anyway though, so we'll see what difference it does make tomorrow.
I dropped the car off with 7.400" pushrods, and asked them to check the lifter preload. They did, and swapped to 7.450" pushrods. The engine builder (FFHP) thinks I ought to have 7.400", so perhaps the valves aren't shutting all the way? Another post on the subject, here:
https://ls1tech.com/forums/generation-iii-internal-engine/517292-pushrod-length.html
Mike said I might want to add a Halltech Stinger (big air filter, big air bridge, smooth coupler instead of accordian), hi-flow cats and an X-Pipe, and switch to Z06 titanium mufflers (I don't want the car too loud). He thought I might pick up 30+ rwhp (depending on how clogged, if any, my cats are right now).
FFHP was a bit more optimistic, and thinks there is a definite problem, and I ought to be at 460rwhp right now, with my current mods. The only suspect at this point is the pushrod length, which I'll ask Mike about tomorrow. Another guy at the shop installed the pushrods, I'm not sure how much pre-load they attempted to get. I've got Comp 850-16 lifters, *not* comp R lifters. I can't recall if they asked what lifters I have when I asked them to check the preload.
Thanks,
Miles
PS: The Halltech Stinger is about $300, an X-pipe with cats is maybe $800, and hopefully I could get a used Z06 exhaust for $300-$400. That's ~$1500, which I'm okay with spending. I don't want to drop the extra cash to get a FAST 90 or AFR 225 heads now though, I'm thinking maybe I'll upgrade to LS7 style heads when they are the new big thing 6 months from now. Paying $1000 for a plastic intake manifold, and then throwing it out to replace with a $300 GM LS7 intake, would just hurt too much. So for now, I'm gonna keep the cheap Patriot heads, and just live with whatever power I get out of them (which better be more than 407rwhp
)
The car is a C5 with stainless works 1 3/4" long tubes, but stock cats, stock h-pipe, stock mufflers. LS6 intake manifold and big K&N cone air filter, but stock air bridge, stock MAF, and stock throttle body (hand ported). It's got new NGK TR55s at the stock gap, new plug wires, and 42lb/hr injectors.
I was hoping for ~450rwhp. I figured the intake and exhuast would cost quite a bit of power, but I never expected to only have 407rwhp. I don't have the graph or any numbers besides peak hp, I'll talk to Mike again tomorrow and try to get the dyno chart. Oh, the IAT also went to -38 degrees at around 6000 rpms, which richened things up a bit, but he thinks it wouldn't have broken 415rwhp even without that as a problem. He's gonna replace the IAT sensor anyway though, so we'll see what difference it does make tomorrow.
I dropped the car off with 7.400" pushrods, and asked them to check the lifter preload. They did, and swapped to 7.450" pushrods. The engine builder (FFHP) thinks I ought to have 7.400", so perhaps the valves aren't shutting all the way? Another post on the subject, here:
https://ls1tech.com/forums/generation-iii-internal-engine/517292-pushrod-length.html
Mike said I might want to add a Halltech Stinger (big air filter, big air bridge, smooth coupler instead of accordian), hi-flow cats and an X-Pipe, and switch to Z06 titanium mufflers (I don't want the car too loud). He thought I might pick up 30+ rwhp (depending on how clogged, if any, my cats are right now).
FFHP was a bit more optimistic, and thinks there is a definite problem, and I ought to be at 460rwhp right now, with my current mods. The only suspect at this point is the pushrod length, which I'll ask Mike about tomorrow. Another guy at the shop installed the pushrods, I'm not sure how much pre-load they attempted to get. I've got Comp 850-16 lifters, *not* comp R lifters. I can't recall if they asked what lifters I have when I asked them to check the preload.
Thanks,
Miles
PS: The Halltech Stinger is about $300, an X-pipe with cats is maybe $800, and hopefully I could get a used Z06 exhaust for $300-$400. That's ~$1500, which I'm okay with spending. I don't want to drop the extra cash to get a FAST 90 or AFR 225 heads now though, I'm thinking maybe I'll upgrade to LS7 style heads when they are the new big thing 6 months from now. Paying $1000 for a plastic intake manifold, and then throwing it out to replace with a $300 GM LS7 intake, would just hurt too much. So for now, I'm gonna keep the cheap Patriot heads, and just live with whatever power I get out of them (which better be more than 407rwhp
) 
05-31-2006, 06:42 PM
#2
Wow, that sucks. Those are really low numbers for what you have. I believe FFHP is right, and you should be kicking out more like 460whp. That just seems massively off.
I hope someone can chime in to help you resolve this, but I would think that they need a dyno graph to really help you any further.
I hope someone can chime in to help you resolve this, but I would think that they need a dyno graph to really help you any further.
06-01-2006, 06:51 AM
#3
Hey All,
A litle info from my end to help out Miles. The preload with the 7.400 pushrods was 1/2 to 3/4 turn and with the 7.450's 1.5 turns which is good for the 850-16's. The A/F was at 13.0 pretty much across the board with 28-29* of timing and no knock at all.
It almost seems like the compression needs to be higher with the large cam and, at least at this point, Miles had no info as to what volume the piston or cylinder heads have to compute the actual compression. Torque peaks at 46-4800 and HP peaks at 6500 or so. Power down low is decent compared to peak numbers. Makes me think the cam timing is right.
I really do not have anything to compare it to in that this has a somewhat stock intake and stock cats, stock H-pipe and stock C5 exhaust. It could just be that the larger cubes need to breath better, especially with that larger cam, and the cats (partially clogged or not) and stock C5 mufflers being upgraded could make a huge difference. Only one way to find out.
Even if you figure in that my dyno reads 2-3% lower then others, that would make it in the 425 RWHP area if the IAT's had kept proper.
As a comparison, we had a 2004 GTO that we installed a 427 in with 230-236 115 XER, AFR 225's, Dynatech LT's w/ cats, magnaflow exhaust that put down 465 RWHP and 475 RWT. This was using the stock air box w/ K&N, stock small MAF sensor w/ screen, stock intake manifold and stock pulley.
Hope this info helps.
Mike Norris
A litle info from my end to help out Miles. The preload with the 7.400 pushrods was 1/2 to 3/4 turn and with the 7.450's 1.5 turns which is good for the 850-16's. The A/F was at 13.0 pretty much across the board with 28-29* of timing and no knock at all.
It almost seems like the compression needs to be higher with the large cam and, at least at this point, Miles had no info as to what volume the piston or cylinder heads have to compute the actual compression. Torque peaks at 46-4800 and HP peaks at 6500 or so. Power down low is decent compared to peak numbers. Makes me think the cam timing is right.
I really do not have anything to compare it to in that this has a somewhat stock intake and stock cats, stock H-pipe and stock C5 exhaust. It could just be that the larger cubes need to breath better, especially with that larger cam, and the cats (partially clogged or not) and stock C5 mufflers being upgraded could make a huge difference. Only one way to find out.
Even if you figure in that my dyno reads 2-3% lower then others, that would make it in the 425 RWHP area if the IAT's had kept proper.
As a comparison, we had a 2004 GTO that we installed a 427 in with 230-236 115 XER, AFR 225's, Dynatech LT's w/ cats, magnaflow exhaust that put down 465 RWHP and 475 RWT. This was using the stock air box w/ K&N, stock small MAF sensor w/ screen, stock intake manifold and stock pulley.
Hope this info helps.
Mike Norris
06-01-2006, 07:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Miles in Florida
The car is a C5 with stainless works 1 3/4" long tubes, but stock cats, stock h-pipe, stock mufflers. LS6 intake manifold and big K&N cone air filter, but stock air bridge, stock MAF, and stock throttle body (hand ported). It's got new NGK TR55s at the stock gap, new plug wires, and 42lb/hr injectors.
Thats like jumping in a lake and trying to scuba dive through a garden hose. Get the rest of the exhaust work done, or at least drop the mufflers/over axle pipes to see if a dramtic difference happens.
06-01-2006, 07:37 AM
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Just got done putting a 402 together. I used Patroit stage 3 heads with 59cc, bumped compression to 11.3, a 244/248 on a 115 cam and used 7.350 pushrods car was build for NOS, but still put down 515/495 N/a.
06-01-2006, 07:43 AM
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Something doesnt add up for sure. I would just drop the exhaust altogether and do a pull through open headers.
If that doesnt fix it something is wrong somewhere. That car should make 400RWHP on 7 cylinders easily. Pushrods seem long to me especially if the heads are milled.
Maybe a leakdown should be done to see if the valves are hanging open from the pushrods?
Cheers,
Chris
If that doesnt fix it something is wrong somewhere. That car should make 400RWHP on 7 cylinders easily. Pushrods seem long to me especially if the heads are milled.
Maybe a leakdown should be done to see if the valves are hanging open from the pushrods?
Cheers,
Chris
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06-01-2006, 08:05 AM
#8
Just a little more info for folks about the situation as far as further testing goes. The car was brought to us with the engine installed already by Miles and we were to just fill the fluids, check pushrod length and a general checkover and then tune.
We had figured a half day give or take plus the tuning and with approx 12 other cars here with appointments and Miles initially needing the car Weds PM or Thurs AM, any diagnostic tests requiring much R&R, even seemingly simple, would run us into other folks alotted times. Any time a customer brings in a 95% competed car it can go smooth or the last 5% of the work can be quite a bit more then expected. This is not to say we will not or cam not do it, just we need to get it lined up with the rest of the shop schedule. We also have a bent header flange to try to deal with causing the LS fuel trims to vary slightly. Nothing crazy, but still needs to be addresed as well as the IAT connector which will be here this morning.
Dropping the mufflers would be an easy test if it would not cause other problems. With the mufflers off the inner CV boots get a direct exhaust flow from the intermediate pipe since it kicks up slightly to meets the over the axle pipes. I learned this the hard way a few years back. I feel that dropping the entire mid pipe and exhaust would be the best test and would be the easiest to do. Again we just ned toime and an open dyno.
Miles is supposed to let me know if he wants to leave the car here and do more tesing and/or add the headers and intake and we what we can get. I would also like to see the engine specs and hopefully the engine supplier will get them to him. The specs may be what we need, but I am not into guessing things. Even if they could just tell me what preload they prefer on the lifters may help.
n20stroker,
On your setup, a couple questions just for comparison. What lifters are you using? How much preload in turns? How much were the heads milled? The last time I had to use 7.350" pushrods was with LS6 style truck heads milled to get 11+ to 1 compression and 875-16 lifters with 1/8 turn preload. Nice to see a 115 LSA cam to help out the torque for sure.
One other timing issue is that I am on vacation starting Friday AM till Monday the 12th, but my guys can handle any R&R and dyno run tests till I get back. Thanks for the input and again I hope this info helps.
Mike Norris
We had figured a half day give or take plus the tuning and with approx 12 other cars here with appointments and Miles initially needing the car Weds PM or Thurs AM, any diagnostic tests requiring much R&R, even seemingly simple, would run us into other folks alotted times. Any time a customer brings in a 95% competed car it can go smooth or the last 5% of the work can be quite a bit more then expected. This is not to say we will not or cam not do it, just we need to get it lined up with the rest of the shop schedule. We also have a bent header flange to try to deal with causing the LS fuel trims to vary slightly. Nothing crazy, but still needs to be addresed as well as the IAT connector which will be here this morning.
Dropping the mufflers would be an easy test if it would not cause other problems. With the mufflers off the inner CV boots get a direct exhaust flow from the intermediate pipe since it kicks up slightly to meets the over the axle pipes. I learned this the hard way a few years back. I feel that dropping the entire mid pipe and exhaust would be the best test and would be the easiest to do. Again we just ned toime and an open dyno.
Miles is supposed to let me know if he wants to leave the car here and do more tesing and/or add the headers and intake and we what we can get. I would also like to see the engine specs and hopefully the engine supplier will get them to him. The specs may be what we need, but I am not into guessing things. Even if they could just tell me what preload they prefer on the lifters may help.
n20stroker,
On your setup, a couple questions just for comparison. What lifters are you using? How much preload in turns? How much were the heads milled? The last time I had to use 7.350" pushrods was with LS6 style truck heads milled to get 11+ to 1 compression and 875-16 lifters with 1/8 turn preload. Nice to see a 115 LSA cam to help out the torque for sure.
One other timing issue is that I am on vacation starting Friday AM till Monday the 12th, but my guys can handle any R&R and dyno run tests till I get back. Thanks for the input and again I hope this info helps.
Mike Norris
06-01-2006, 08:23 AM
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Mike,
I dont think anyone is blaming you for the numbers or the setup. It's great that you are offering to help him out.
I think if running through open headers doesnt pick up 50-70RWHP then there has to be something wrong somewhere...Cam a tooth off, valvetrain/geometry problem, dead coil pack, wire/plugs etc.
I dont think anyone is blaming you for the numbers or the setup. It's great that you are offering to help him out.
I think if running through open headers doesnt pick up 50-70RWHP then there has to be something wrong somewhere...Cam a tooth off, valvetrain/geometry problem, dead coil pack, wire/plugs etc.
06-01-2006, 09:28 AM
#10
CHRISPY,
Definitely not taking this as folks blaming me at all, just making sure all the info possible is out there to see what he can get done. Time is my only enemy here in I am gone on vacation a s mentioned. My guys can handle the "testing" Friday or early next week, but if the tuning needs to be done it will not be till the 12th at best when I get back.
In relation to your other ideas, I am sure the cam timing is right due to the where peak toruq and horsepower hit. No misfire that we can tell, nice smooth pull and idle is decent with that cam. Valvetarin geometery is possible, but considering a stock valvetrain and in the normal pushrod length area, it should be okay. Unless they used .050-.100" long valves or crazy milled the heads, which I guess is possible but no info on that yet.
I just e-mailed Miles back and a tentative plan on my side is to check the plugs he has in there as well as do a compression test. We can add a Halltech Stinger at that time also. On top of that we need to R&R the LS header to fix a leak at the flange, so we can do an open header run on the dyno which will be close to a "normal" setup. From there along with the engine specs if we get them we can make a much more educated conclusion for sure. Just a bit on the bad side for Miles as he will end up spending more then he planned and it may not be a real issue and more the package in relation to engine setup versus the current bolt-ons. We will see.
Thanks again.
Mike Norris
Definitely not taking this as folks blaming me at all, just making sure all the info possible is out there to see what he can get done. Time is my only enemy here in I am gone on vacation a s mentioned. My guys can handle the "testing" Friday or early next week, but if the tuning needs to be done it will not be till the 12th at best when I get back.
In relation to your other ideas, I am sure the cam timing is right due to the where peak toruq and horsepower hit. No misfire that we can tell, nice smooth pull and idle is decent with that cam. Valvetarin geometery is possible, but considering a stock valvetrain and in the normal pushrod length area, it should be okay. Unless they used .050-.100" long valves or crazy milled the heads, which I guess is possible but no info on that yet.
I just e-mailed Miles back and a tentative plan on my side is to check the plugs he has in there as well as do a compression test. We can add a Halltech Stinger at that time also. On top of that we need to R&R the LS header to fix a leak at the flange, so we can do an open header run on the dyno which will be close to a "normal" setup. From there along with the engine specs if we get them we can make a much more educated conclusion for sure. Just a bit on the bad side for Miles as he will end up spending more then he planned and it may not be a real issue and more the package in relation to engine setup versus the current bolt-ons. We will see.
Thanks again.
Mike Norris
06-01-2006, 09:42 AM
#11
That thing defiantly needs to breath. Not saying thats the issue but im sures its seriously robbing some power. Still not so sure on the PR's being that long with the heads being milled.
Im assuming the car is an A4?
Im assuming the car is an A4?
06-01-2006, 09:47 AM
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I noticed that when I put the plug wires on, I had to work with a couple of them to get a good "click" on the coil pack side. So perhaps one plug wire is loose, and I am running on seven cylinders?
I downloaded "Dynojet RunViewer 7.0.1.0" to view the runs, and I don't know why, but the SAE corrected numbers are actually *lower* than no correction factor. The graph label says 99.43 degrees fahrenheit, and 30.28"Hg. Is it possible the correction wasn't applied right?
I tried attaching the dynorun files (with a .txt tacked on the end, so attaching would work). Hoepfully they show up, if not i'll find a place to host them on the web.
Thanks everybody,
Miles
I downloaded "Dynojet RunViewer 7.0.1.0" to view the runs, and I don't know why, but the SAE corrected numbers are actually *lower* than no correction factor. The graph label says 99.43 degrees fahrenheit, and 30.28"Hg. Is it possible the correction wasn't applied right?
I tried attaching the dynorun files (with a .txt tacked on the end, so attaching would work). Hoepfully they show up, if not i'll find a place to host them on the web.
Thanks everybody,
Miles
06-01-2006, 09:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Z'mnypit
That thing defiantly needs to breath. Not saying thats the issue but im sures its seriously robbing some power. Still not so sure on the PR's being that long with the heads being milled.
Im assuming the car is an A4?
Im assuming the car is an A4?
06-01-2006, 09:54 AM
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Hey Miles Heads were not milled right from Gunnar just used there 59cc head with .30 thickness gaskets to make my compression. Im using stock OEM lifters. Ya my cam is going to love the NOS.
06-01-2006, 10:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Mike Norris
It almost seems like the compression needs to be higher with the large cam and, at least at this point, Miles had no info as to what volume the piston or cylinder heads have to compute the actual compression. Torque peaks at 46-4800 and HP peaks at 6500 or so. Power down low is decent compared to peak numbers. Makes me think the cam timing is right.
Cam:
238/244 .605/.612, 112LSA, Comp XE-R
Heads:
Patriot Stage 3, 72cc, unmilled, 0.054" gasket, 11:1 compression
I plugged the numbers in to a dynamic compression calculator, and assuming no advance ground in, it gets 8:1DCR. Assuming 4 degrees advance, it gets 8.3:1. I'm gonna call FFHP again, and ask for the deck height and if any advance is ground in, to get more exact numbers with the calculator. I think even if there's no advance, 8:1 DCR isn't *that* low, right?
06-01-2006, 10:10 AM
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not sure what calulator you are using, by I get 10.9:1
4.005 bore
4.00 stroke
-2cc pistons
4.060 gasket bore
.054 gasket thickness
72cc chambers
-.010 deck height
10.9:1
4.005 bore
4.00 stroke
-2cc pistons
4.060 gasket bore
.054 gasket thickness
72cc chambers
-.010 deck height
10.9:1
06-01-2006, 10:16 AM
#17
Originally Posted by Miles in Florida
I talked to FFHP, and got more info:
Cam:
238/244 .605/.612, 112LSA, Comp XE-R
Heads:
Patriot Stage 3, 72cc, unmilled, 0.054" gasket, 11:1 compression
I plugged the numbers in to a dynamic compression calculator, and assuming no advance ground in, it gets 8:1DCR. Assuming 4 degrees advance, it gets 8.3:1. I'm gonna call FFHP again, and ask for the deck height and if any advance is ground in, to get more exact numbers with the calculator. I think even if there's no advance, 8:1 DCR isn't *that* low, right?
Cam:
238/244 .605/.612, 112LSA, Comp XE-R
Heads:
Patriot Stage 3, 72cc, unmilled, 0.054" gasket, 11:1 compression
I plugged the numbers in to a dynamic compression calculator, and assuming no advance ground in, it gets 8:1DCR. Assuming 4 degrees advance, it gets 8.3:1. I'm gonna call FFHP again, and ask for the deck height and if any advance is ground in, to get more exact numbers with the calculator. I think even if there's no advance, 8:1 DCR isn't *that* low, right?
You are correst though 8-1 is way low for a N/A motor. I would go at least mid-high 11's CR with that cam.
06-01-2006, 10:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Demon SS
not sure what calulator you are using, by I get 10.9:1
4.005 bore
4.00 stroke
-2cc pistons
4.060 gasket bore
.054 gasket thickness
72cc chambers
-.010 deck height
10.9:1
4.005 bore
4.00 stroke
-2cc pistons
4.060 gasket bore
.054 gasket thickness
72cc chambers
-.010 deck height
10.9:1
Could you tell me if there's any advance ground into the cam?
06-01-2006, 11:01 AM
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I used all the new numbers in the dynamic compression ratio calculator, and I still get ~8.0:1 (7.96838) assuming no advance, and 8.3:1 (8.26740) assuming 4 degrees advance.