299ci ls vs 5.0 302 coyote build ford guys welcome ;-)
04-02-2019, 10:52 PM
#24
10 Second Club
iTrader: (8)
Just build another big ci ls. Finish spreading the furd asses out to the point you can shove a cylinder head in it....one of their dohc cylinder head.
They just trying to play you. It's not a ls problem that the coyote is ci deficient....it's a their problem.
They just trying to play you. It's not a ls problem that the coyote is ci deficient....it's a their problem.
04-02-2019, 11:02 PM
#25
10 Second Club
iTrader: (8)
You wanna do something your entire build would need to change....to beat this. Just saying... i understand your idea.
https://www.enginelabs.com/news/live...r-road-racing/
https://www.enginelabs.com/news/live...r-road-racing/
04-02-2019, 11:14 PM
#26
Im already building a 333.
Again this is the only way to get close in cid and use small bore/short stroke like the 5.0 so that's what it is. This isnt an exercise in building a coyote killer.
Its a straight test to see which one can hold their mud so to speak.
Again this is the only way to get close in cid and use small bore/short stroke like the 5.0 so that's what it is. This isnt an exercise in building a coyote killer.
Its a straight test to see which one can hold their mud so to speak.
04-02-2019, 11:31 PM
#27
10 Second Club
but in the 2v configuration like the LS breathing becomes an issue at high rpm hence why the bigger the bore mentality for an NA 2v engine has always worked so well
a 4v Head is different. It can still breath better on a long stroke\ tiny bore so what you get is good TQ per litre but will also rev for really good HP\L.
So to make the HP with a small CI LS you will want to maximize your bore and rev it even higher than the coyote to make more hp. Sounds odd but contrary to popular belief it’ll rev to the moon just as well or better than a coyote. Take it to 8500-9000 rpm and it will make all kinds of zing
the LS HUGE advantage is bore spacing. Ford modulars\coyote have a garbage bore spacing for packaging reasons. A 4.4” bore spacing DOHC engine is just a logistical nightmare to get into a vehicle
the LS much better bore spacing and deck height allows for around 2.2L more displacement than a coyote and a bore size so big you can get intake flow so incredible the coyote heads can’t even fathom it, and in a package that’s still overall smaller. Ls purely destroys the coyote in NA potential.
But can a 312 CI outperform a coyote Na? Yup.
04-02-2019, 11:41 PM
#28
3.750 stroke iirc so they are longer than any ls but ls7. But 3.600ish bore.
This is a test about basically same cid (the only affordable way to make it) with similar cyl head flow and on a decent budget. Thats basically where all the ford guys complain. "its a much larger bore" "ots got a longer stroke" "those are promod style heads" and other bs like that.
So this build is easily attainable, budget, and pretty close on every. I dont expect it to make torque but the 11:1 cr wont hurt. E85 if ran will help also. If the little engine that could will do it, then is there any other leg to stand on? All those people that link to other builds etc can then be linked to this one and compare.
Like i said since im doing it anyway and i have the parts its not a huge deal. And i can either sell it from there or tear it down and build the 312. It is a substantially larger bore and i dont need the internet experts from the other side to have something else to nitpick. Call it a golf handicap.
Im basically doing it for science and im gonna science the **** out of it.
This is a test about basically same cid (the only affordable way to make it) with similar cyl head flow and on a decent budget. Thats basically where all the ford guys complain. "its a much larger bore" "ots got a longer stroke" "those are promod style heads" and other bs like that.
So this build is easily attainable, budget, and pretty close on every. I dont expect it to make torque but the 11:1 cr wont hurt. E85 if ran will help also. If the little engine that could will do it, then is there any other leg to stand on? All those people that link to other builds etc can then be linked to this one and compare.
Like i said since im doing it anyway and i have the parts its not a huge deal. And i can either sell it from there or tear it down and build the 312. It is a substantially larger bore and i dont need the internet experts from the other side to have something else to nitpick. Call it a golf handicap.
Im basically doing it for science and im gonna science the **** out of it.
04-03-2019, 01:51 AM
#29
I understand.... But i've found that the only and best competition is you against yourself if you get what i'm saying. Out do a goal wanted with basic science. If you know this the bar is already set high for any combination..Heck you didn't even say a intended goal for hp nor rpm. That's a better fight. Out due what you'd expect and set the bar high for the rpm and engine size used. BTW they'd make around the same hp just at a different rpm it's a basic formula. Same ? was asked on YB. Big bore 400 vs small bore 400ci.
crickets......
on a 5.0 competitor
crickets......
on a 5.0 competitor
Last edited by Smokey B; 04-03-2019 at 02:22 AM.
04-03-2019, 11:17 AM
#30
I get the concept. I'm excited to see how your engine runs. I like seeing something beyond the same old ****.
I think it'd make a bit more sense to have the coyote be able to do bolt-ons minus head porting. Matching displacement, compression and head flow makes sense. Maybe also forcing the Coyote to be a fixed cam timing if you really want to get picky.
04-03-2019, 11:20 AM
#31
Already naming the ford talking points shows why it would be a good test.
Seriously what are the arguments used from the ford side? Basically what you just said. So when everything is more equal, what are the talking points then?
This is engine dyno so both would have dyno headers and the boss302 intake is an option. Thats the extent of boltons for either engine really.
And for making it fair, locking the cams would be better but if it can be done both ways then why not see the difference. Afaik there is no dyno comparison of a 5.0 with phaser vs lockout so another good comparison inside the test
Seriously what are the arguments used from the ford side? Basically what you just said. So when everything is more equal, what are the talking points then?
This is engine dyno so both would have dyno headers and the boss302 intake is an option. Thats the extent of boltons for either engine really.
And for making it fair, locking the cams would be better but if it can be done both ways then why not see the difference. Afaik there is no dyno comparison of a 5.0 with phaser vs lockout so another good comparison inside the test
04-03-2019, 12:31 PM
#32
10 Second Club
iTrader: (8)
Nothing is ever fair to furd guys dude. They do one thing good......cry. That's it.
I say let them cry and build as many cubes and rpm in it as you can afford. The displacements of the ls is it's advantage. The 32v dohc of the furd is supposed to be it's advantage. Use both as effectively as possible and the coyote loses in a big way.
Small cube chevy motors going fast is nothing new like the furd guys think it is. Local guy had a 283sbc in the 9s back in the 80s. He street drove the damn thing. Not daily but would cruise it once in a while. No where near the parts/technology that is available these days.
I say let them cry and build as many cubes and rpm in it as you can afford. The displacements of the ls is it's advantage. The 32v dohc of the furd is supposed to be it's advantage. Use both as effectively as possible and the coyote loses in a big way.
Small cube chevy motors going fast is nothing new like the furd guys think it is. Local guy had a 283sbc in the 9s back in the 80s. He street drove the damn thing. Not daily but would cruise it once in a while. No where near the parts/technology that is available these days.
Last edited by HioSSilver; 04-03-2019 at 12:36 PM.
04-05-2019, 09:34 AM
#34
coyote is more of a long stroke\small bore. It’s stroke is actually slightly longer than an ls3 with a teeny bore. Now long stroke \ small bore engine tend to make a bit better TQ per litre than short stroke\large bore
but in the 2v configuration like the LS breathing becomes an issue at high rpm hence why the bigger the bore mentality for an NA 2v engine has always worked so well
a 4v Head is different. It can still breath better on a long stroke\ tiny bore so what you get is good TQ per litre but will also rev for really good HP\L.
So to make the HP with a small CI LS you will want to maximize your bore and rev it even higher than the coyote to make more hp. Sounds odd but contrary to popular belief it’ll rev to the moon just as well or better than a coyote. Take it to 8500-9000 rpm and it will make all kinds of zing
the LS HUGE advantage is bore spacing. Ford modulars\coyote have a garbage bore spacing for packaging reasons. A 4.4” bore spacing DOHC engine is just a logistical nightmare to get into a vehicle
the LS much better bore spacing and deck height allows for around 2.2L more displacement than a coyote and a bore size so big you can get intake flow so incredible the coyote heads can’t even fathom it, and in a package that’s still overall smaller. Ls purely destroys the coyote in NA potential.
But can a 312 CI outperform a coyote Na? Yup.
but in the 2v configuration like the LS breathing becomes an issue at high rpm hence why the bigger the bore mentality for an NA 2v engine has always worked so well
a 4v Head is different. It can still breath better on a long stroke\ tiny bore so what you get is good TQ per litre but will also rev for really good HP\L.
So to make the HP with a small CI LS you will want to maximize your bore and rev it even higher than the coyote to make more hp. Sounds odd but contrary to popular belief it’ll rev to the moon just as well or better than a coyote. Take it to 8500-9000 rpm and it will make all kinds of zing
the LS HUGE advantage is bore spacing. Ford modulars\coyote have a garbage bore spacing for packaging reasons. A 4.4” bore spacing DOHC engine is just a logistical nightmare to get into a vehicle
the LS much better bore spacing and deck height allows for around 2.2L more displacement than a coyote and a bore size so big you can get intake flow so incredible the coyote heads can’t even fathom it, and in a package that’s still overall smaller. Ls purely destroys the coyote in NA potential.
But can a 312 CI outperform a coyote Na? Yup.
I missed it but what bore exactly and what are you running for a head?
Last edited by TT427; 04-05-2019 at 09:40 AM.
04-05-2019, 10:30 AM
#35
TECH Senior Member
The Town Car/MKIIIV was never front drive.
04-05-2019, 12:23 PM
#36
10 Second Club
I find it funny they didnt change that on the Coyote since it does deviate somewhat from the old 4.6 design. That 4.6 was designed to fit in front drive TownCar/MKIIIV right?, as far as i know they dont have that requirement anymore so why not increase the bore space at least a smidge from 3.93 to 4.1 and make the thing 3/4 of an longer LOL. Assuming .250 off bore space to get total bore you would be in the 3.85 bore area and that would leave more than current thickness at 3.700 spray bore lol? Total blunder on Fords Part other than saving money on completely retooling, 3/4 of in length would have allowed 3.8 bores and bigger valves. I know its not a simple thing to change the pattern but your not changing any of the major design just the spacing. Not to hijack
I missed it but what bore exactly and what are you running for a head?
I missed it but what bore exactly and what are you running for a head?
04-10-2019, 11:38 PM
#38
I found a nice set of Icon pistons on our April sale
5cc dome. So those are going in...now i wont have to mill the **** out of the heads for 11:1 cr like the ferd. still need a 3.910 x .040 gasket roughly. PTD measurement will verify that.
Still budget also. $550 for the set. Still uses gen4 4.8 rods. Cant beat that.
5cc dome. So those are going in...now i wont have to mill the **** out of the heads for 11:1 cr like the ferd. still need a 3.910 x .040 gasket roughly. PTD measurement will verify that.
Still budget also. $550 for the set. Still uses gen4 4.8 rods. Cant beat that.
04-19-2019, 07:08 PM
#39
Pistons on the way!
+5cc dome for 6.100 rod 3.820 bore from Icon. 4032 forging.
Should be alot easier to make 11:1 with them vs a flat top PLUS coated skirt and drilled drainback holes.
Rods on the way too! GEN4 4.8L floating pin. Then its off to balancing. Ill be using our king bearings also. Hope to have the block all broken down soon.
Maybe pics Tomorrow but no big deal everyone has seen a broken down block right?
$550 for forged pistons and some serious file fit rings? Cant beat that so i had to get em ;-)
+5cc dome for 6.100 rod 3.820 bore from Icon. 4032 forging.
Should be alot easier to make 11:1 with them vs a flat top PLUS coated skirt and drilled drainback holes.
Rods on the way too! GEN4 4.8L floating pin. Then its off to balancing. Ill be using our king bearings also. Hope to have the block all broken down soon.
Maybe pics Tomorrow but no big deal everyone has seen a broken down block right?
$550 for forged pistons and some serious file fit rings? Cant beat that so i had to get em ;-)