299ci ls vs 5.0 302 coyote build ford guys welcome ;-)
03-31-2019, 03:49 PM
#1
299ci ls vs 5.0 302 coyote build ford guys welcome ;-) Im Going to add another project that is in response to the recent ls vs coyote builds on horsepower wars. It was ls3 va 5.0 then it was procharged ls vs procharged coyote. Too many feelings were hurt snd excuses given so why not level the playing field?
As some of you know im building a few engines to test out some theories as well as prove our parts from WS6STORE and RPMSpeed.
One of them was a 312cid ls. It is a 3.898 x 3.268 iron block. Using std rpmspeed heavy duty ls1 pistons and rings and all that good stuff, gen 4 4.8 rods with arp pro2000 rod bolts, and all new stuff. It is aimed at a true budget build BUT since it will be aimed at pulling a little more than std rpm it will have a slightly upgraded valvetrain.
I originally intended it to be a 3.908 bore but in order to meet the requirements of what i think would be a great comparison, ill stick with the smaller bore of 3.820.
The direction has changed a little with a few details also. Lets talk about what i believe the scope of the competition would be. I mean, im building the engine anyway to test, might as well test it right?
The basis of the build would be to have as much equality as possible. That means cid, cr, engine parts, cyl head flow etc. So ive made a few guidelines.
- Same compression ratio - 11:1
This means instead of the 243 heads i wanted to use ill be going with an 862 likely. Smaller chamber size to start will help. Im looking at 56cc chamber. That also means likely cometic head gaskets in a 3.910 x .030 at 0 deck or .035 if above deck. Still a highly used common gasket so not out of bounds. They also have flow numbers that will be close to coyote. Reason why in next guideline
- Same cylinder head flow (or very close by percentage)
So in going with the equality theme, ive compared DOZENS of cylinder head flow numbers from stock and ported ls stock castings and the 862 seems to be the best to work with for both the small chamber and their stock flow capabilities. The tsp 2.5 port job looks like the ticket and going flow on par with the coyote heads on a 3.820 bore since they are flowed on a larger bore for their numbers.
Coyotes supposedly flow 298@.600 intake and 206@.600 exhaust. Thats for the gen2 heads i believe. the gen3 are supposed to be a little bit more but thats ok the website i found info on says the same. (used rgr/jpc numbers)
Same cid - (close) 299 vs 302
Basically i cant build a 5.0 out of an ls and keep it on budget. Its going to be a 299. 3.820 x 3.268. We carry pistons in that size. Very close to the 302 of the coyote. They do have a smaller bore size but a longer stroke so in order to make the cid similar im working with what the ls world has to offer in stock form. This will likely get the largest argument but on lieu of a 9k billet block with the small 3.6 bore and a custom crank to make it exact, this is what it will be.
Stock style rocker arms - I will be using our MAX EFFORT rocker arms with NOFLEX bolt to keep the top end tidy.
11/32 pushrods from manton custom length
Id like to say i want to use the ls7 lifters but id rather go with something a little more robust plus link bars to keep the oil in the pan and not in the trays so im eyeing the morel 5290 street tie bars. Great price and good quality. One of the better budget lifter sets. Plus i have a spare set ;-) They may not be "rated" for what i want to do, but this past year and quite a few builds have shown how well ls7 lifters can hold up also so why not?
Springs - undecided atm. Maybe the Manley or PSI or PAC beehives. Stock beehive style and i have a spare set of ti retainers so that helps.
Cam - i will be using one of our new designed cams to be released soon. Made for high rpm stuff.
Oil pump - i will be using our rpmspeed ported and shimmed pump
Timing chain - ill be using the SA Gear single row billet set with ROLON chain. Economical and heavy duty with torrington thrust bearing.
Stock style bearings that come in the kit and stock head bolts.
I will have the bottom end arp main studs and line hone in to keep things happy there.
Intake manifold - i think the Holley sniper race version will do exactly what i want and its a very popular manifold and not extremely expensive so why not?
This will all be to go against a stock 5.0. It can be any 5.0 from the gt 2011-17. Gen2 or gen3. No ringers and no boss 302s although a boss 302 intake manifold on a reg 5.0 is acceptable.
So those are the plans. Pistons are already ordered. The block was at the shop already so ill just change bore size and get rollin on it. Ill do the 312 build later since i have another spare 4.8 block and crank anyway.
The dyno runs will be the interesting part. Im going to talk with a few shops with engine dynos and see if they would be willing to get it done. Then all i need is someone from the ford side to bring a 5.0. It will be checked out also so dont think youre bringing a ringer to the show ;-) Ill bring a spare set of head bolts and head gaskets. I expect the Holley efi or dominator to be in control of both for tuning. I think ive got a guy for that also.
The Mod Motor guys always want to nitpick and throw blame and LS guys too, so this is about as even as the playing field gets. Basically a stock parts budget build, nothing fancy with valvetrain upgrades.
Ive got my flame suit on so bring on the comments.
Im sure there will be plenty of complaints but what better build are you going to find? I mean seriously without bringing up some mythical on paper unicorn build or some 20k internet build in a drag car blah blah this is as real as its going to get.
Of course its not stock vs stock. Its also (according to mod motor guys) 1960s tech so what is there to be scared of?
Any ford guys want to help out?
I havent set up any rules for scoring etc so i need input there. Maybe max hp gets x and max tq gets x and avg and combined like the other procharged la vs coyote build?
As some of you know im building a few engines to test out some theories as well as prove our parts from WS6STORE and RPMSpeed.
One of them was a 312cid ls. It is a 3.898 x 3.268 iron block. Using std rpmspeed heavy duty ls1 pistons and rings and all that good stuff, gen 4 4.8 rods with arp pro2000 rod bolts, and all new stuff. It is aimed at a true budget build BUT since it will be aimed at pulling a little more than std rpm it will have a slightly upgraded valvetrain.
I originally intended it to be a 3.908 bore but in order to meet the requirements of what i think would be a great comparison, ill stick with the smaller bore of 3.820.
The direction has changed a little with a few details also. Lets talk about what i believe the scope of the competition would be. I mean, im building the engine anyway to test, might as well test it right?
The basis of the build would be to have as much equality as possible. That means cid, cr, engine parts, cyl head flow etc. So ive made a few guidelines.
- Same compression ratio - 11:1
This means instead of the 243 heads i wanted to use ill be going with an 862 likely. Smaller chamber size to start will help. Im looking at 56cc chamber. That also means likely cometic head gaskets in a 3.910 x .030 at 0 deck or .035 if above deck. Still a highly used common gasket so not out of bounds. They also have flow numbers that will be close to coyote. Reason why in next guideline
- Same cylinder head flow (or very close by percentage)
So in going with the equality theme, ive compared DOZENS of cylinder head flow numbers from stock and ported ls stock castings and the 862 seems to be the best to work with for both the small chamber and their stock flow capabilities. The tsp 2.5 port job looks like the ticket and going flow on par with the coyote heads on a 3.820 bore since they are flowed on a larger bore for their numbers.
Coyotes supposedly flow 298@.600 intake and 206@.600 exhaust. Thats for the gen2 heads i believe. the gen3 are supposed to be a little bit more but thats ok the website i found info on says the same. (used rgr/jpc numbers)
Same cid - (close) 299 vs 302
Basically i cant build a 5.0 out of an ls and keep it on budget. Its going to be a 299. 3.820 x 3.268. We carry pistons in that size. Very close to the 302 of the coyote. They do have a smaller bore size but a longer stroke so in order to make the cid similar im working with what the ls world has to offer in stock form. This will likely get the largest argument but on lieu of a 9k billet block with the small 3.6 bore and a custom crank to make it exact, this is what it will be.
Stock style rocker arms - I will be using our MAX EFFORT rocker arms with NOFLEX bolt to keep the top end tidy.
11/32 pushrods from manton custom length
Id like to say i want to use the ls7 lifters but id rather go with something a little more robust plus link bars to keep the oil in the pan and not in the trays so im eyeing the morel 5290 street tie bars. Great price and good quality. One of the better budget lifter sets. Plus i have a spare set ;-) They may not be "rated" for what i want to do, but this past year and quite a few builds have shown how well ls7 lifters can hold up also so why not?
Springs - undecided atm. Maybe the Manley or PSI or PAC beehives. Stock beehive style and i have a spare set of ti retainers so that helps.
Cam - i will be using one of our new designed cams to be released soon. Made for high rpm stuff.
Oil pump - i will be using our rpmspeed ported and shimmed pump
Timing chain - ill be using the SA Gear single row billet set with ROLON chain. Economical and heavy duty with torrington thrust bearing.
Stock style bearings that come in the kit and stock head bolts.
I will have the bottom end arp main studs and line hone in to keep things happy there.
Intake manifold - i think the Holley sniper race version will do exactly what i want and its a very popular manifold and not extremely expensive so why not?
This will all be to go against a stock 5.0. It can be any 5.0 from the gt 2011-17. Gen2 or gen3. No ringers and no boss 302s although a boss 302 intake manifold on a reg 5.0 is acceptable.
So those are the plans. Pistons are already ordered. The block was at the shop already so ill just change bore size and get rollin on it. Ill do the 312 build later since i have another spare 4.8 block and crank anyway.
The dyno runs will be the interesting part. Im going to talk with a few shops with engine dynos and see if they would be willing to get it done. Then all i need is someone from the ford side to bring a 5.0. It will be checked out also so dont think youre bringing a ringer to the show ;-) Ill bring a spare set of head bolts and head gaskets. I expect the Holley efi or dominator to be in control of both for tuning. I think ive got a guy for that also.
The Mod Motor guys always want to nitpick and throw blame and LS guys too, so this is about as even as the playing field gets. Basically a stock parts budget build, nothing fancy with valvetrain upgrades.
Ive got my flame suit on so bring on the comments.
Im sure there will be plenty of complaints but what better build are you going to find? I mean seriously without bringing up some mythical on paper unicorn build or some 20k internet build in a drag car blah blah this is as real as its going to get.
Of course its not stock vs stock. Its also (according to mod motor guys) 1960s tech so what is there to be scared of?
Any ford guys want to help out?
I havent set up any rules for scoring etc so i need input there. Maybe max hp gets x and max tq gets x and avg and combined like the other procharged la vs coyote build?
03-31-2019, 04:29 PM
#2
TECH Senior Member
This oughtta be GOOOOD!
03-31-2019, 04:51 PM
#3
According to one ford guy "no one will buy a 5.0 for your neat little test"
So they are either not confident or it wouldn't pass the internet build test. Idk.
They are pricey but im sure someone has either a spare one or one for a build about to begin that could handle waiting a little longer.
So they are either not confident or it wouldn't pass the internet build test. Idk.
They are pricey but im sure someone has either a spare one or one for a build about to begin that could handle waiting a little longer.
03-31-2019, 05:29 PM
#4
TECH Senior Member
Hey, you might have to resort to sourcing one from the "Previously Utilized Engine Emporium", AKA junkyard....
BTW, I actually own a 5.0 in my 2013 F150. Great engine, and more powerful in stock form than our 5.3 in our Suburban, but LS engines have more potential in my eyes.
BTW, I actually own a 5.0 in my 2013 F150. Great engine, and more powerful in stock form than our 5.3 in our Suburban, but LS engines have more potential in my eyes.
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04-01-2019, 03:32 PM
#9
TECH Senior Member
04-02-2019, 12:46 AM
#12
Are you shooting for HP numbers or actually going fast? 
A 4" stroke will still rev to 7500-8000rpm with good heads/intake... and provide gobs of torque.....
The only thing a short stroke setup does is rev..... however you give up lots of additional torque which is what really moves a car.
I bought this engine a couple years ago with 2 wounded cylinders (nitrous mishap).... it was 358ci and rev'd to nearly 10K RPM. I made it a 441ci motor with 4.190" bore, 4" LS7 crank/rods and 13:1 compression with the same AllPro Heads to gain well over 100rwhp and 100rwtq and still rev to 8000rpm. https://www.lsxmag.com/features/inte...at-bonneville/
If you want the 3.27" Magnum crank/Howards rods PM me. They are bad ***.... but then again.... a 3.622" stroke crank has no issues revving to 9000rpm... so why give up the cubic inches/tq?
IMO the machine work to build the setup you are describing is the same cost if you were to build something better (bigger bore). Why even waste the $ to do some internet 5.0 liter challenge. Build something that really kicks ***.....
A 4" stroke will still rev to 7500-8000rpm with good heads/intake... and provide gobs of torque.....
The only thing a short stroke setup does is rev..... however you give up lots of additional torque which is what really moves a car.
I bought this engine a couple years ago with 2 wounded cylinders (nitrous mishap).... it was 358ci and rev'd to nearly 10K RPM. I made it a 441ci motor with 4.190" bore, 4" LS7 crank/rods and 13:1 compression with the same AllPro Heads to gain well over 100rwhp and 100rwtq and still rev to 8000rpm. https://www.lsxmag.com/features/inte...at-bonneville/
If you want the 3.27" Magnum crank/Howards rods PM me. They are bad ***.... but then again.... a 3.622" stroke crank has no issues revving to 9000rpm... so why give up the cubic inches/tq?
IMO the machine work to build the setup you are describing is the same cost if you were to build something better (bigger bore). Why even waste the $ to do some internet 5.0 liter challenge. Build something that really kicks ***.....
04-02-2019, 03:27 PM
#14
I guess you missed the jist of the build.
Im already building the engine but figured why not do a real challenge where you build the ls nearly the same as the coyote. Thats the common complaint amongst ls guys.
Then the biggest talking point amongst mod motor/coyote guys being the dohc would be the only "real" difference (besides phasers too)
Im not building it to go fast, im building it to compare. I can always rebuild it to the 312ci later when i want or if someone wants to purchase the engine then ill sell it and make another.
As far as the morel go the ones i have are 2 years old and bnib so no issues there. We have sold quite a few this year and have heard no issues though so maybe the internet just blows things out of proportion or the propaganda is parroted. I like Johnson also but they are very limited in offerings and go on b/o alot. Plus you cant buy a tie bar setup for the 300s from them. Heck you cant even get a drop in for that.
Im already building the engine but figured why not do a real challenge where you build the ls nearly the same as the coyote. Thats the common complaint amongst ls guys.
Then the biggest talking point amongst mod motor/coyote guys being the dohc would be the only "real" difference (besides phasers too)
Im not building it to go fast, im building it to compare. I can always rebuild it to the 312ci later when i want or if someone wants to purchase the engine then ill sell it and make another.
As far as the morel go the ones i have are 2 years old and bnib so no issues there. We have sold quite a few this year and have heard no issues though so maybe the internet just blows things out of proportion or the propaganda is parroted. I like Johnson also but they are very limited in offerings and go on b/o alot. Plus you cant buy a tie bar setup for the 300s from them. Heck you cant even get a drop in for that.
04-02-2019, 03:30 PM
#15
Ill still build the engine regardless. All i need is a Coyote then and im not going to buy source or beg for one. Thats for the blue oval guys to do.
I am going to maybe reach out and see if the build is interesting enough to get some more attention though.
If it doesnt happen then it doesnt happen and this will be a huge missed opportunity for the other side. Then they cant complain it never happened.
I am going to maybe reach out and see if the build is interesting enough to get some more attention though.
If it doesnt happen then it doesnt happen and this will be a huge missed opportunity for the other side. Then they cant complain it never happened.
04-02-2019, 08:48 PM
#17
Im building an ls equal to a stock coyote.
Did you read the thread? Its all in there along with explanation.
This isnt an ULTIMATE BUILD or MOD MOTOR DESTROYER or anything like that. Its a basic build with an emphasis on seeing which is better in equal form. Its as close on a small budget youre gonna get to being equal which and all the parts are readily available....at the JY for most parts. No special anything.
Basically bore, pistons, cnc ported heads, cam, intake.
Expected costs
I already have core block, core crank, core rods, core heads, core covers which are usually part of any 4.8 build when you get a jy engine
$950 stg 2.5 cnc from TSP
$699 complete rebuild kit
$345 morel 5290
$150 11/32 manton pushrods
$289 dual spring kit or beehive with ti retainers
$299 rockers
$600 intake holley sniper 102
$369 tb nick williams 102
$389 cam
$89 timing set
$95 ported/shimmed rpmspeed pump
$230 arp main studs
Ill prob add in an improved racing baffle kit in pan
$200
Thats it besides machine work
$4700
Not bad if it performs, right?
I mean thats 10k less than that ls vs coyote shootout. And some of the machine work and extras were definitely left off there.
A normal build consists of all of that anyway or more if using forged pistons and rods etc.
Did you read the thread? Its all in there along with explanation.
This isnt an ULTIMATE BUILD or MOD MOTOR DESTROYER or anything like that. Its a basic build with an emphasis on seeing which is better in equal form. Its as close on a small budget youre gonna get to being equal which and all the parts are readily available....at the JY for most parts. No special anything.
Basically bore, pistons, cnc ported heads, cam, intake.
Expected costs
I already have core block, core crank, core rods, core heads, core covers which are usually part of any 4.8 build when you get a jy engine
$950 stg 2.5 cnc from TSP
$699 complete rebuild kit
$345 morel 5290
$150 11/32 manton pushrods
$289 dual spring kit or beehive with ti retainers
$299 rockers
$600 intake holley sniper 102
$369 tb nick williams 102
$389 cam
$89 timing set
$95 ported/shimmed rpmspeed pump
$230 arp main studs
Ill prob add in an improved racing baffle kit in pan
$200
Thats it besides machine work
$4700
Not bad if it performs, right?
I mean thats 10k less than that ls vs coyote shootout. And some of the machine work and extras were definitely left off there.
A normal build consists of all of that anyway or more if using forged pistons and rods etc.
04-02-2019, 08:48 PM
#18
You, just do it like anything else? Get with the Right Ford guy's and i'm sure the challenge would be taken. Think Big and if you fall look @ who's left over.
1st off who builds 5.0's with A1 yelp reviews?
2nd what websites or coyote forums are there?
A good coyote engine builder will have stuff to build something..... if that's what you really want to do.
1st off who builds 5.0's with A1 yelp reviews?
2nd what websites or coyote forums are there?
A good coyote engine builder will have stuff to build something..... if that's what you really want to do.
04-02-2019, 08:53 PM
#19
I dont need a builder. ANY 5.0 non boss will do. This isnt a builders competition. Im not some big time builder but i do enjoy building. We arent known for building also, which is fine. Im doing it to prove theories. The internet will tear it apart for one reason or the other so that part doesnt matter. Everyone has an opinion. Im doing this to sate my curiosity but to also show what an actual budget can do.
I forgot to add arp bolts in list so add $100 to that as the gen4 4.8 rods are getting arp rod bolts. For safety and peace of mind.
I forgot to add arp bolts in list so add $100 to that as the gen4 4.8 rods are getting arp rod bolts. For safety and peace of mind.
04-02-2019, 09:18 PM
#20
Hard pressed..... Who has $ to waste Unless they were already in the process of building or purchasing a 5.0?
Either way 1 may void the warranty and the other way a person would need to be building a engine along the parameters your using and i hate to tell you this.....crickets........
Who in there right mind builds or is gonna use a NA modular engine?
Crickets
Either way 1 may void the warranty and the other way a person would need to be building a engine along the parameters your using and i hate to tell you this.....crickets........
Who in there right mind builds or is gonna use a NA modular engine?
Crickets