Hey Noyzee
08-21-2007, 06:36 PM
#21
Originally Posted by Noyzee
its not one head stoping me, i have an *** pile of **** going on in my life right now, and the car braking is the last thing i want to deal with.
family issues (serios ones), work issues, personal issues, car issues, sled issues ect ect ect.
just not #1 on my list right now. i want to race it big time, i want to see what it will do, i have new gears in the box waiting to go in ect ect, but just cant justifie spending atleast 1000 bucks on 1 head when i want to replace them anyway with a beter head this winter/spring.
long story, but i was realy hoping afr would come threw with it, but oh well.
family issues (serios ones), work issues, personal issues, car issues, sled issues ect ect ect.
just not #1 on my list right now. i want to race it big time, i want to see what it will do, i have new gears in the box waiting to go in ect ect, but just cant justifie spending atleast 1000 bucks on 1 head when i want to replace them anyway with a beter head this winter/spring.
long story, but i was realy hoping afr would come threw with it, but oh well.
08-21-2007, 07:18 PM
#22
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**** that sucks brad. i will definitely be going with edelbrock heads after hearing that...i would think a big company like afr would stand behind something like that.
08-21-2007, 07:33 PM
#24
Originally Posted by 98hardtopSS
**** that sucks brad. i will definitely be going with edelbrock heads after hearing that...i would think a big company like afr would stand behind something like that.
go edelbrock, i've had nothing but good things to say about mine
08-21-2007, 09:36 PM
#25
That sucks that a company wouldn't eat something like that for a customer using not just one but several pricey products of theirs, and being very visible with them, running single digit times at the track on a regular basis, that is great advertising for them. And it will be for whoever makes your next set of heads. Too bad. Good luck with whatever you get. And don't even consider throwing in the towel, you obviously have some real passion for this sport.
08-22-2007, 12:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Nautilus
**** it... lets just leave my car alone and drink this weekend. 
Wow dude that sucks big time....and yeah everyone is gettin all emotional in here....**** 
Dude bring your guns down...we'll really give the neighbors something to talk about lol
08-22-2007, 02:01 AM
#27
Damn, thats sucks man, sorry to hear that about AFR. Thats kinda why I didnt go with a set of heads from them. I never had any good luck with their customer service. Hope everything works out for you.....
rob
rob
Last edited by HASTINGSRJ; 08-22-2007 at 02:06 AM.
08-22-2007, 07:32 AM
#28
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tracer, your gay. lol
thanks man, everything is pushing forward you know. one thing after another 1 step forward 5 back, but oh well.
dave, my heads are 225's so the 205 wont cut it, not sure i can go with a 30 head either, my pistions are 3d milled to these heads, but thanks for the offer.
chris, 100% go with the edlbrock heads, they are super super nice.
im not givin up, im going to weld the head up, if it works, im putting the gears in, throwing a speed dens tune in it, and running it on motor a few times (mess with the tune) then hit it with 150, see how she goes. pretty sure it will be good.
we'll see what hapens. and with afr, i see that they may say hell, he touched the heads, no warenty, but for them to say the work you did will never work the heads are junk anyway. then i told them they have been like that for 4 years and we have 2 other sets running for atleast 3 years, and all run single digets. he was like, hhmmm. well i wouldnt think it would work. well. it did, and the others still work.
well hell at that point id say, well pay shipping and we will send you a new one.
but oh well. i know for sure i would have.
like i said, they lost 2 sales now, plus i wont consider them for my next set either
thanks man, everything is pushing forward you know. one thing after another 1 step forward 5 back, but oh well.
dave, my heads are 225's so the 205 wont cut it, not sure i can go with a 30 head either, my pistions are 3d milled to these heads, but thanks for the offer.
chris, 100% go with the edlbrock heads, they are super super nice.
im not givin up, im going to weld the head up, if it works, im putting the gears in, throwing a speed dens tune in it, and running it on motor a few times (mess with the tune) then hit it with 150, see how she goes. pretty sure it will be good.
we'll see what hapens. and with afr, i see that they may say hell, he touched the heads, no warenty, but for them to say the work you did will never work the heads are junk anyway. then i told them they have been like that for 4 years and we have 2 other sets running for atleast 3 years, and all run single digets. he was like, hhmmm. well i wouldnt think it would work. well. it did, and the others still work.
well hell at that point id say, well pay shipping and we will send you a new one.
but oh well. i know for sure i would have.
like i said, they lost 2 sales now, plus i wont consider them for my next set either
08-22-2007, 10:23 AM
#29
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few things are worse than when you have personal problems, and one of the things in life that keeps you sane/happy and takes your mind off the bad stuff is also giving you problems.
hopefully it all works out soon. i'm not going to say anything gay... that's what buttaball is for.
hopefully it all works out soon. i'm not going to say anything gay... that's what buttaball is for.
08-22-2007, 12:47 PM
#30
Im coping and pasting my response below from another thread discussing the same thing. As all of you know there are two sides to every story....
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Guys....
First off I would like to think that AFR has proven beyond a doubt that we are extremely customer service oriented and usually bend over backwards for all of our customers. In fact I would like to think we set a new precedent in customer service when it came to the way we handled our valve tip heat treat issues some six to nine months back (actually reimbursing people for labor to R&R the heads....unheard of in this industry). We handle and treat people and situations the way we would want to be treated in a similar situation if we were in your shoe's (the customer).
That said, there are occasionally obvious issues that fall in line with warranty work (typical of any mass produced part)....then there are issues that are gray (don't really know whether the problem may have been induced by the customer or from a fault or defect in the product), and then there are the issues that clearly don't justify a warranty (like a blown up head because a customer didn't check or have enough piston to valve clearance with clear cut evidence of valves tagging pistons on the other cylinders).
This situation (while unrelated to piston to valve clearance) in our opinion qualifies as the third example above due to Brad's (Noyzee) decision to extensively weld EVERY water hole in the deck in an effort to improve its integrity. Unfortunately doing so will usually produce results 180 degrees of what was intended (essentially making things worse) UNLESS you re-heat treat the entire cylinder head to restore its strength/hardness as well as relieve the stress from all the welding that gets generated from the extreme localized heat during the process (there are a couple of different ways to accomplish that....vibratory is the most common).
Unfortunately none of that was done in this particular case and the bulk of the entire head deck (and bolt bosses terminating at the head deck) are all soft and far below AFR's acceptable minimum Rockwell rating of 100 (most of what we ship is in the 110-115 range). Most of the deck surface of Brad's head checked in the 40-60 range. This doesn't take into account the metal fatigue and stress that's brought into the aluminum from the intense heat in the welded areas. (Note that the head stud boss that failed had three water port opening welded shut directly below it).
We have NEVER seen an AFR LS1 head crack by the head bolt boss and are confident the extensive welding effected the integrity of our casting and ultimately set the stage for this head to fail (crack) a few years later after many repeated hot and cold cycles. The bottom line is whether it did or didn't can be argued by either side but all of you must realize that when you take a manufacturer's product and severely modify it, your basically waiving your right to any type of warranty (no matter who's product or what it is). Its not much different then bolting a huge blower on your factory leased ride (still under warranty), spinning a rod bearing (or worse) sometime later, and then rolling into the dealer expecting them to warranty the engine. Whether the blower (and the additional power output) actually caused the bearing to fail no one will know, but more than likely it played its part and without a doubt the service writer will tell you to have a nice day after he pops your hood.
Also, I feel bad that Brad sent the head in under the pretense that we were going to warranty it but at no time in any of our correspondence was there a mention to the extensive welding work done previously. Had I known I would have hit the brakes right there and informed him of the situation.
In the end in an attempt to do the best we could for our obviously disappointed customer (and knowing what's its like to be bummed out about speed parts gone bad because most of us here are racers) we offered Brad a smoking deal on a fully ported brand new casting. Fully machined, seats and guides installed and honed....valvejob done....basically a head ready to swap in valves and springs and assemble. We retail that piece for $1130 (thats for a single casting) and offered it to Brad for only $600. Literally less than our cost of the casting, parts included, and machine time needed to turn that casting into a beautiful CNC ported finished piece. I personally negotiated on his behalf to even make it that attractive and was disappointed to read today that he felt that wasnt a good enough deal. In fact I was disappointed to read about any negative sentiment directed our way but thats another story and I probably should have expected it.
I've enclosed some pics below of one of our unmodified older castings (what Brad's looked like before the welding) and put magic marker in circles around all the areas that had been welded. Below that is a pic without the red marker where its easier to appreciate just how much welding was actually done. BTW, the welding work was top notch....no signs of voids or pitting....it was very well done, but without the proper stress relieve and heat treat after the fact, the casting integrity is ruined from the localized intense heat of the weld. Also note that to properly re-heat treat the head all the guides and seats would have needed to be removed which really turns it into a huge endeavor.
Hope this helps educate some of you as well as clear a few things up concerning this situation...
Regards,
Tony Mamo
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Guys....
First off I would like to think that AFR has proven beyond a doubt that we are extremely customer service oriented and usually bend over backwards for all of our customers. In fact I would like to think we set a new precedent in customer service when it came to the way we handled our valve tip heat treat issues some six to nine months back (actually reimbursing people for labor to R&R the heads....unheard of in this industry). We handle and treat people and situations the way we would want to be treated in a similar situation if we were in your shoe's (the customer).
That said, there are occasionally obvious issues that fall in line with warranty work (typical of any mass produced part)....then there are issues that are gray (don't really know whether the problem may have been induced by the customer or from a fault or defect in the product), and then there are the issues that clearly don't justify a warranty (like a blown up head because a customer didn't check or have enough piston to valve clearance with clear cut evidence of valves tagging pistons on the other cylinders).
This situation (while unrelated to piston to valve clearance) in our opinion qualifies as the third example above due to Brad's (Noyzee) decision to extensively weld EVERY water hole in the deck in an effort to improve its integrity. Unfortunately doing so will usually produce results 180 degrees of what was intended (essentially making things worse) UNLESS you re-heat treat the entire cylinder head to restore its strength/hardness as well as relieve the stress from all the welding that gets generated from the extreme localized heat during the process (there are a couple of different ways to accomplish that....vibratory is the most common).
Unfortunately none of that was done in this particular case and the bulk of the entire head deck (and bolt bosses terminating at the head deck) are all soft and far below AFR's acceptable minimum Rockwell rating of 100 (most of what we ship is in the 110-115 range). Most of the deck surface of Brad's head checked in the 40-60 range. This doesn't take into account the metal fatigue and stress that's brought into the aluminum from the intense heat in the welded areas. (Note that the head stud boss that failed had three water port opening welded shut directly below it).
We have NEVER seen an AFR LS1 head crack by the head bolt boss and are confident the extensive welding effected the integrity of our casting and ultimately set the stage for this head to fail (crack) a few years later after many repeated hot and cold cycles. The bottom line is whether it did or didn't can be argued by either side but all of you must realize that when you take a manufacturer's product and severely modify it, your basically waiving your right to any type of warranty (no matter who's product or what it is). Its not much different then bolting a huge blower on your factory leased ride (still under warranty), spinning a rod bearing (or worse) sometime later, and then rolling into the dealer expecting them to warranty the engine. Whether the blower (and the additional power output) actually caused the bearing to fail no one will know, but more than likely it played its part and without a doubt the service writer will tell you to have a nice day after he pops your hood.
Also, I feel bad that Brad sent the head in under the pretense that we were going to warranty it but at no time in any of our correspondence was there a mention to the extensive welding work done previously. Had I known I would have hit the brakes right there and informed him of the situation.
In the end in an attempt to do the best we could for our obviously disappointed customer (and knowing what's its like to be bummed out about speed parts gone bad because most of us here are racers) we offered Brad a smoking deal on a fully ported brand new casting. Fully machined, seats and guides installed and honed....valvejob done....basically a head ready to swap in valves and springs and assemble. We retail that piece for $1130 (thats for a single casting) and offered it to Brad for only $600. Literally less than our cost of the casting, parts included, and machine time needed to turn that casting into a beautiful CNC ported finished piece. I personally negotiated on his behalf to even make it that attractive and was disappointed to read today that he felt that wasnt a good enough deal. In fact I was disappointed to read about any negative sentiment directed our way but thats another story and I probably should have expected it.
I've enclosed some pics below of one of our unmodified older castings (what Brad's looked like before the welding) and put magic marker in circles around all the areas that had been welded. Below that is a pic without the red marker where its easier to appreciate just how much welding was actually done. BTW, the welding work was top notch....no signs of voids or pitting....it was very well done, but without the proper stress relieve and heat treat after the fact, the casting integrity is ruined from the localized intense heat of the weld. Also note that to properly re-heat treat the head all the guides and seats would have needed to be removed which really turns it into a huge endeavor.
Hope this helps educate some of you as well as clear a few things up concerning this situation...
Regards,
Tony Mamo
Last edited by Tony Mamo @ AFR; 08-22-2007 at 03:33 PM.
08-22-2007, 01:44 PM
#32
I knew there was more to this.
This is the main reason I like to deal with Tony at AFR.The heads are great quality and they stand behind there product. Welding all the coolant holes for a stronger surface (I wouldn't of done it)then when the head cracks AFR gets the blame is pathetic.
This just goes under ,**** breaks when you race.
This is the main reason I like to deal with Tony at AFR.The heads are great quality and they stand behind there product. Welding all the coolant holes for a stronger surface (I wouldn't of done it)then when the head cracks AFR gets the blame is pathetic.
This just goes under ,**** breaks when you race.
08-22-2007, 03:04 PM
#34
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Oh well, now that the truth is out, I can see why they didn't warranty it. $600 for the replacement is a kickass deal and above and beyond the call. My hat goes off to AFR for trying to resolve the issue in a very professional way.
08-22-2007, 03:09 PM
#35
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who cares we did we need to know why brad and afr were at odds none of our bussiness, we wouldn't have even know about there problem and we shouldn't have had. unless brad or afr posted here about it seem as though someone just wanted to start some ****
08-22-2007, 03:51 PM
#36
Originally Posted by ace68
who cares we did we need to know why brad and afr were at odds none of our bussiness, we wouldn't have even know about there problem and we shouldn't have had. unless brad or afr posted here about it seem as though someone just wanted to start some ****
The AFR thing came from his mouth,not mine. Then I looked into it since AFR was put out as a shitty deal and everybody here thought it was a simple warrenty. Just hate seeing people following the wrong idea.
It's was nice hearing from you Ace,you can go back in your hole again
08-22-2007, 04:02 PM
#37
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don, i welded them up, and drilled them out to match the gasket, this is in no way effecting the spot that cracked. besides, its been like this for a long time, and been on 2 other sets of heads.
tony said these heads wont even seal and wont work, i told him they have been like that for 3 years and he said, oh uummm well ah, let me ask my boss.
600 is not a killer deal, i can get 2 heads compleat valves, springs ect ect for 2k so for 1 head no valves or springs ect is 600. whats the kiler deal?
either way don, you got what you wanted, you got to hear me say my car is down, now you got to bust my *****.
let it go now
i know beter then most when you race **** brakes, but thisis out of control, and tony said, yeah man, thats a bad head, send it back, i will get you a new one, no problem.
i said, well these heads have been worked on and welded.
tony said, no big deal, this shouldnt happen.
cool, i spent the 60 bucks to ship it to them, now get a call to pound sand, and have to pay the 60 to ship it back to me. oh well. no big deal, thanks for nothing.
tony said these heads wont even seal and wont work, i told him they have been like that for 3 years and he said, oh uummm well ah, let me ask my boss.
600 is not a killer deal, i can get 2 heads compleat valves, springs ect ect for 2k so for 1 head no valves or springs ect is 600. whats the kiler deal?
either way don, you got what you wanted, you got to hear me say my car is down, now you got to bust my *****.
let it go now
i know beter then most when you race **** brakes, but thisis out of control, and tony said, yeah man, thats a bad head, send it back, i will get you a new one, no problem.
i said, well these heads have been worked on and welded.
tony said, no big deal, this shouldnt happen.
cool, i spent the 60 bucks to ship it to them, now get a call to pound sand, and have to pay the 60 to ship it back to me. oh well. no big deal, thanks for nothing.
08-22-2007, 04:05 PM
#38
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ps, kurt from wheel to wheel has his heads welded the same way, and then some, and has not had this problem. hmm, why am i the only one?
4 sets done the same way, 3 of which were done by the same person, mine have the least amout of passes and street miles, and these are welded by pat mussi, not some hack shop, i dont think pat would weld them if he thought it would hurt them.
again, oh well. i'll get new heads and move on, you wanted to know what happend, i told you, the truth was out from the first second. i told tony these heads had work done and welding on the surface. he said no problem.
4 sets done the same way, 3 of which were done by the same person, mine have the least amout of passes and street miles, and these are welded by pat mussi, not some hack shop, i dont think pat would weld them if he thought it would hurt them.
again, oh well. i'll get new heads and move on, you wanted to know what happend, i told you, the truth was out from the first second. i told tony these heads had work done and welding on the surface. he said no problem.
08-22-2007, 04:10 PM
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Originally Posted by ace68
Ok, like I said SEEMS as someone waS STARTING ****, 5
