gogogadgetcar

best piece of advice yet

Texas_WS6

iTrader: (9)

I will take a look at those pics. If anyone has any more please post them here and I will studdy them too. As for marketing them, I do not think so. I would rather put the prints and stuff on the web for anyone to use. This is my hobby not my job. Were there is a will there is always a way. I think with a good attitude, alot of hard work, a very good imagination, and time to come up with the money, I will be able to accomplishe what I want. It is realy no different then the things we do every day out here in the Gulf of Mexico with all the equipment on our platforms to get you guys the oil you need to turn to fuel to make your cars go fast. Yes i work for one of those evil oil companies. I have tons of access to a world of supplies, engenering experts, and profesional fabricators that would be willing to do most of the fabricating I need just to be part of the project. I know this is something that can be done and it will be done. I am not looking for coments on how we all need to studdy more or how imposible it is. I am looking for positive ideas on solutions to potential problems. Like why does the tubing have to be in a round configuration? If it can flow the same volume and has the same area why can't we use a square or rectanglur shaped tubing to get past the tight spots? Why does the exhaust manifold have to be separet from the downpipe? Can they not be made one part with a divider separating the flow of gases? This would alow you to make a two direction manifold close to the same size as the factory one. There is a number of ways to solve any problem.

As far as the water/alk system, I have to admit I have absolutly no knowledge of them. Any info you have on them wil be greatly appretiated.

If you have nothing positive to post here do not post it. I only want positive people to weigh in on this.

slow

iTrader: (7)

first off, you really can't mount the turbos up any higher with a twin setup, doing it incon style.

keeping all of the components in place is a challenge in itself,

I would do a setup, similar to one of the "fabricated" turbo kits out there, and try to copy that.

Trying to copy the manufactured incon kit, will be VERY difficult, and it also has some custom turbo parts, you can't get from your local ricer turbo shop.

I wish you the best of luck on this setup, I have a friend who is 95% finished doing a single turbo on a 95 firebird, and already did TT's on his 00 V6 mustang. The amount of little things required to make a setup like this to work, is way more than you expect.

Ryan.

Texas_WS6

iTrader: (9)

I have no idea what an incon style set up is. Please explain it more.

Whistler

iTrader: (46)

Seems like a waste of time if all you're looking for is 500HP. There are kits you can buy that most of the hard work already done.

y2khawk

iTrader: (5)

The Incon setup is the pictures i posted.

My website has some details of the install as well.

Texas_WS6

iTrader: (9)

The turbo kits run around $7000. I believe I can do a twin kit for $4000. $3000 is not a waist of my time.

gogogadgetcar

I am currently trying to make my own TT setup for my '98 Z28. Do you plan on using new parts or used parts? 3-4K is a very tight budget for a complete turbo system imo. If you have all these engeneer friends that will fabricate stuff for you that is great it will save you a ton of money. I spent over 3K on just my turbos and intercooler. The thing that pushes you over the edge money wise with FI is all the other stuff you need to change on the car. tuning, tranny, rear end, fuel system. As far as the negative coments from people they're not trying to be negative just realistic.

For your exhaust tubing question, from what I've been told you can use oval or square tubing as long as the bends are as smooth as possable. I'm not sure what you are getting at with the exhaust manifold and down pipe being the same piece, where would the turbo go? If you are serious about making your own turbo system you really should read Maximum Boost, it practicaly tells you step by step how to build one.

Texas_WS6

iTrader: (9)

Good advise. I will try and find that book. I am not considering trans or rear end in that price. Just the turbo stuff. Here are the quotes I have gotten so far.
$700 each T3/T4E turbo from Inovation.
$800 for the intercooler. Exact dimensions are still being worked out. From Bellintercoolers.
$250 each Waist gates from same turbo source.
$500 for a Blow off Valve.
That brings my total so far to $2950.

Now I will need Fuel pump, injectors, and tunning program.
$300 for 255 fuel pump.
$300 for fuel injectors.
$550 for LS1 Edit. (Which I will buy at any rate so this cost is realy already expected for anything.

That lifts my cost to $4100.

Now I will have material costs like hoses, clamps piping and what not. Most of this I can pick up for nothing. The welding will cost me nothing. At most the last of these things will cost me several cases of beer. But beer is part of the lifestyle so you can not add that cost into it.
I am sure I can make this kit for less the $7000 that is quoted for the QMP kit. Even if I save $1, it will be worth it. I like to do things like this my self. We should have sevral hundred hours of remarkable memories come out of this project.

As for what i was talking about on making a one part manifold.
The easiest way to explan it would be the fallowing (but remember the actual shape may be slightly different do to space).
Say you take and make a rectanglur tube that will streatch from the last exhaust port next to the firewall to the front of the engine. It may even extend past the front a bit. This might be 2"X 5". Have all the exhaust ports enter the top. Place a divider on the inside making two different tubes in one. So that the inside is basically 2" X 2" on the top section and 2" X 3" on the bottom. This would allow the exhaust gases to flow into the top chamber and move forward. You would pipe the inlet to the turbine side of the turbo from this top section. Then pipe the turbine outlet back to the bottom section. The gases would then leave the turbo and enter the lower section flowing back to the rear. At the rear you would turn down the lower section and enter the Cats at the factory location. You can then place the waistgate at the rear of the top section, piped into the down pipe of the lower section. This would devert any excess exhaust gases from the top section directly into the lowe section, bypassing the turbo.

Now like I said earlier, the exact shape of the manifod will most likely be something slightly different. But this way you make one manifold for each bank. Minimuze the piping. you can insulate this manifold to help retain heat and limit the heat radiating from it. It should make for a very clean setup.

What do y'all think of that idea on the manifold?

I have drawn up three different designs so far.

jyeager

Your manifold idea is certainly creative. I think the downfall is that your setup will require the exhaust gasses traveling at hundreds of feet/sec to change direction when the waste gate opens. I don't think it will redirect quickly and you'll end up overboosting. Not to mention that when you change direction the other way (when the waste gate closes) you may end up seeing extreme reversion back into the cylinders which would cause a temporary misfire, or maybe even a wholesale engine stall when you get off the throttle.
Get that 'maximum boost' book by Corky Bell. It explains in great detail the importance of smooth exhaust flow and even discusses this exact issue and recommends against it.

Pro Stock John

iTrader: (34)

The silicone couplers for ducting can get pricey, if you don't use round tubing how will you attach the pipes?

A home brewed setup is cool but don't underestimate the cost of small stuff like those couplers. I needed like 6-7 of them for my SC'd setup to connect the ducting to the intercooler etc.

Texas_WS6

iTrader: (9)

You bring up a good point. the waistgate probly should be on the same side as the turbo. This should not be hard to do.

I got the drawings on the turbos. They are 8.40" long and 6.88" in diameter. I would have to consider the piping coming out the rear, which will be 3" and will probly be bent upwords. That will ad another 3" to the length. Also the 3" inlet piping coming into the fromt of the turbo. Even if this was turned up it is still going to add another 3" to the lenght. So now we are looking for a spot that is at a minimal 6.88" in diamitor and 14.5" in length. I need two places like that.I am still thinking of the dead space between the engine and the radiator.

I will know for sure tomorrow were I can place them. I am waiting for the Helicoptor to get here to fly us in. So I will be home starting tomorrow and I will be messuring everything out at that time.

Were do you think I can find that book?

Texas_WS6

iTrader: (9)

If i can place the turbos forward of the engine, then I can use the round tubing and couplings for the compressed air side. Realy the only place I am thinking I will have to use rectangular shaped tubing is on the turbine side to make the run down the side of the engine. This will all be part of the exhaust manifold.

I will keep you posted through this week while I record all the mesurements. After i get all the mesurments I will have a much better Idea were everything will go.

Texas_WS6

iTrader: (9)

OK, I got home this morning. I have been messuring and looking for a place to put two turbos. You guys are absolutly right. I thing putting the turbos across the front of the engine is out of the question. The best place looks like right under the exhaust ports. Like the Incon system. But even with that system it looks like these turbos will be a very tight fit. Also there does not look like enough room to run both the air inlet and air outlet lines with the factory manifolds. I am thinking it will take a special header that can hold the turbo hirer up then the factory exhaust would. This would aslo need to be done to make roon for both the air inlet and the compressed air to pass between the engine and the car. It will not be a problem on the driver side to do this. If I moove the alternator to the top it will make it very easy to do. A custom exhaust on the passenger side might make enough room for the air to go around the AC compressor. But it may also have to be relocated.

The placement of the turbos looks to have an easy answer, but the placement of the Intercooler will be more chalenging. The radiator inlet has plent of width but I do not think it is tall enough for the size cooler I wanted. I was hoping to use a 3.5" x 15" x 24" cooler. That would be with the ends on it. There is not enough room for this. I could make a cooler 6"x10"x24" to lay down across the opening like the Vortec radiator does. Or I could place the cooler behind the radiator, but if I do that then the cooling air will be elevated and not let the compressed air cool as much as it could.
If I used LS1 Edit then I could program the ECM not to turn the AC off at wide open throttle. I might be able to make an after cooler that uses the AC system insed of water. This would make for a much smaller intercooler. I read somewere that Ford was trying this on one of it SVD Trucks. Or even better, I could convert my NX system into a cooler system. They do make a kit for this. Does anyone have any ideas were to place the intercooler? What does ATI do?

Thanks again for the help.

slow

iTrader: (7)

if you notice on harlans pictures that the incon system does not use factory manifolds, but custom units. you would have to use custom ones, and the factory ones are too low for room for a turbo.

I have measured in that area, and i don't see being able to put an auxilary wastegate with the turbo. I plan on dropping my manifolds soon, and holding some T25's or larger eclipse turbos in that location, and seeing what kind of clearances you would have. a turbo with built in wastegate will make things a LOT easier.

It appears Harlan has a tubular K member, as that woudl make it easier to get the air piping done.

If i ever decide to persue a custom TT setup, i will do my best to model it after the incon setup.

the incon and procharger setups both use 2 smaller size air/air ic's located to both sides under the bumper. There are pics on harlans website, (not the link he posted, but the one in his sig)

I wish you the best of luck on this project.

Ryan.

y2khawk

iTrader: (5)

some FMIC pic's infront of the radiator are here:

http://harlan-engineering.com/eviltwin/FMIC/

Texas_WS6

iTrader: (9)

I agree, to do twins you would need to place the turbos under each head. It looks like his turbos are self contained. or at least they are shorter then what I am looking at. If you had tubular Manifolds you might have the room for the waist gate. But the more I look at this, the more I am thinking of a single turbo set up. I priced the Single t-76 and I think they go for about 1400. So it is about the same price for a single as is twin. But you can cut back on the price of the extra pipping and extra special manifold.
I am just conserned about having too much turbo lag with one turbo. Of course it may have no lag in it with the 3500 stall behind it.