Best timing chain for FI
Best timing chain for FI I'm debating between a few different chains. I would like to hear some opinions on which would be the best choice for a built motor car running 17lbs of boost.
-Double roller
-C5r
-Cloyes adjustable
-Double roller
-C5r
-Cloyes adjustable
I plan to run 20-25psi on my ERL 6 bolt LS2. I did a lot of research before purchasing a KATECH C5R chain. They have NEVER broken one of these in some brutal endurance racing. The abuse experienced in one of these races is never going to be duplicated by street racing or even drag racing. Katech recommended using the stock LS2 timing gears. I will also be running a Katech LS6 ported oil pump. Another well proven piece.
Many believe in double rollers. There are some good ones out there no doubt. Very few people think about the fact that if one row fails, the other is going to follow suit shortly. It's another example of more is not always better.
Many believe in double rollers. There are some good ones out there no doubt. Very few people think about the fact that if one row fails, the other is going to follow suit shortly. It's another example of more is not always better.
I plan to run 20-25psi on my ERL 6 bolt LS2. I did a lot of research before purchasing a KATECH C5R chain. They have NEVER broken one of these in some brutal endurance racing. The abuse experienced in one of these races is never going to be duplicated by street racing or even drag racing. Katech recommended using the stock LS2 timing gears. I will also be running a Katech LS6 ported oil pump. Another well proven piece.
Many believe in double rollers. There are some good ones out there no doubt. Very few people think about the fact that if one row fails, the other is going to follow suit shortly. It's another example of more is not always better.
Many believe in double rollers. There are some good ones out there no doubt. Very few people think about the fact that if one row fails, the other is going to follow suit shortly. It's another example of more is not always better.
also a dual roller (at least the one i have) does not have two separate chains, it has one thick one, it looks like two chains together, but it is actually a one piece, so there is no such thing as one chain fails on a dual roller
but the katech chain is a very good option to people that do not want to mess around with spacing their oil pumps and grinding the timing cover in some cases. also a single roller weights less, so less mass for the motor to turn.
on a dual roller the load is placed on two rows of chain, not one, that is why a dual roller is much stronger then a single. yes the katech chain has never been broken, but is it stronger the a dual roller ? i do not think so
also a dual roller (at least the one i have) does not have two separate chains, it has one thick one, it looks like two chains together, but it is actually a one piece, so there is no such thing as one chain fails on a dual roller
but the katech chain is a very good option to people that do not want to mess around with spacing their oil pumps and grinding the timing cover in some cases. also a single roller weights less, so less mass for the motor to turn.
also a dual roller (at least the one i have) does not have two separate chains, it has one thick one, it looks like two chains together, but it is actually a one piece, so there is no such thing as one chain fails on a dual roller
but the katech chain is a very good option to people that do not want to mess around with spacing their oil pumps and grinding the timing cover in some cases. also a single roller weights less, so less mass for the motor to turn.
Also you said,"on a dual roller the load is placed on two rows of chain", then went on to say this "a dual roller (at least the one i have) does not have two separate chains, it has one thick one, it looks like two chains together, but it is actually a one piece. Really doesn't do much to reinforce your theory of how a double roller is always as strong or as you said stronger than that of the C5R. Its not more mass equals strength. Again, think you are speaking out of your pay grade. Maybe a metallurgist will chime in..........
Last edited by 355TurboLT1; Apr 11, 2010 at 08:25 PM.
Well when you become a metallurgist you can say a double roller is stronger than a high quality single such as the C5R. Until then its merely "your opinion". Doubles in many cases are not stronger. Katech went with this chain for more than not having to shim the oil pump and weight.They know better than pretty much any company what works in a high hp LS motor. Sorry, but many disagree with your logic on double rows carrying more load. There are many double rows that do not even come close to the quality of the Katech piece. Most on this board don't even make enough HP to even need a C5R chain.
Also you said,"on a dual roller the load is placed on two rows of chain", then went on to say this "a dual roller (at least the one i have) does not have two separate chains, it has one thick one, it looks like two chains together, but it is actually a one piece. Really doesn't do much to reinforce your theory of how a double roller is always as strong or as you said stronger than that of the C5R. Its not more mass equals strength. Again, think you are speaking out of your pay grade. Maybe a metallurgist will chime in..........
Also you said,"on a dual roller the load is placed on two rows of chain", then went on to say this "a dual roller (at least the one i have) does not have two separate chains, it has one thick one, it looks like two chains together, but it is actually a one piece. Really doesn't do much to reinforce your theory of how a double roller is always as strong or as you said stronger than that of the C5R. Its not more mass equals strength. Again, think you are speaking out of your pay grade. Maybe a metallurgist will chime in..........
it seems like you have a hard time understanding what i have said before. so let me put in a little simpler for you.
on most blower set ups people upgrade the serpentine belt to have more ribs and that makes the belt stronger and prevents it slipping because there is more rubber contacting the surface of the pulley, same thing with a dual roller, there are double the amount of teeth on the cam gear and the crank sprocket, meaning that the load is spread on a wider area of chain
and if you still do not understand, get a string and pull on it and see when it breaks, then take the same string and cut two peaces of it and place them side by side and try pulling on them and see what combination will break easier.
i have never said a katech is not a good timing chain but you can not say that it is stronger then a good dual roller, after all you are not a metallurgist either
here is my dual roller, by the sounds of thing you have never seen one, so here you go, hope it clears some of the misunderstandings you have
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Well when you become a metallurgist you can say a double roller is stronger than a high quality single such as the C5R. Until then its merely "your opinion". Doubles in many cases are not stronger. Katech went with this chain for more than not having to shim the oil pump and weight.They know better than pretty much any company what works in a high hp LS motor. Sorry, but many disagree with your logic on double rows carrying more load. There are many double rows that do not even come close to the quality of the Katech piece. Most on this board don't even make enough HP to even need a C5R chain.
Also you said,"on a dual roller the load is placed on two rows of chain", then went on to say this "a dual roller (at least the one i have) does not have two separate chains, it has one thick one, it looks like two chains together, but it is actually a one piece. Really doesn't do much to reinforce your theory of how a double roller is always as strong or as you said stronger than that of the C5R. Its not more mass equals strength. Again, think you are speaking out of your pay grade. Maybe a metallurgist will chime in..........
Also you said,"on a dual roller the load is placed on two rows of chain", then went on to say this "a dual roller (at least the one i have) does not have two separate chains, it has one thick one, it looks like two chains together, but it is actually a one piece. Really doesn't do much to reinforce your theory of how a double roller is always as strong or as you said stronger than that of the C5R. Its not more mass equals strength. Again, think you are speaking out of your pay grade. Maybe a metallurgist will chime in..........
the is no logic, it is common sense, less mass for the motor to turn the easier it is on the motor, yes in case of a dual roller it is not allot of mass, but in a racing environment i would think you will want as less as possible, why do you think an electric water pump shows a gain in power ?
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the is no logic, it is common sense, less mass for the motor to turn the easier it is on the motor, yes in case of a dual roller it is not allot of mass, but in a racing environment i would think you will want as less as possible, why do you think an electric water pump shows a gain in power ?
I understand you perfectly and as I said before you are no expert or metalluragist so its your personal belief double rollers are better. Strength was the main reason Katech went with this chain. It's funny how you are acting like a double row in there case would be such a parasitic drag. ok! At the end of the day its not proven that just because you have double rows the chain is automatically stronger. People have come to believe this to be true thanks to the aftermarket. I have seen countless double rollers. Thanks for the shitty picture though, where would I be without your automotive expertise!?
Hey if you want to run the "bigger is better" go right on ahead. I did the research and found the C5R to be one fo the strongest chains available. Again it has never broken in grueling competion that 99% of us could ever subject our cars to. Double row timing chains cannot claim the same! But I guess Katech missed the double row is better memo. You better forward it to them before one of their C5/C6's throws a chain.
Last edited by 355TurboLT1; Apr 12, 2010 at 01:13 AM.
Over the years, we have never had a factory, ls2 or C5r single chain ever break on a customers car.
BUT
somehow, we have had a couple customers break double roller chains (they purchased the parts from us and did their own installations).... each were many months after installation at least and after alot of passes, then reported that "boom" out of no where engine died and broke just like that.
We run Katch C5r chains on most builds with stock LS2 sprockets.
BUT
somehow, we have had a couple customers break double roller chains (they purchased the parts from us and did their own installations).... each were many months after installation at least and after alot of passes, then reported that "boom" out of no where engine died and broke just like that.
We run Katch C5r chains on most builds with stock LS2 sprockets.
I understand you perfectly and as I said before you are no expert or metalluragist so its your personal belief double rollers are better. Strength was the main reason Katech went with this chain. It's funny how you are acting like a double row in there case would be such a parasitic drag. ok! At the end of the day its not proven that just because you have double rows the chain is automatically stronger. People have come to believe this to be true thanks to the aftermarket. I have seen countless double rollers. Thanks for the shitty picture though, where would I be without your automotive guidance.
also i have said that it is not allot more mass then a single, but i guess you forgot to read that part
i have giving you proper facts as to why a proper dual roller is stronger then the katech all you have given me is that it has never been broken
and i am sorry are you a metalluragist ? if not how are you coming to a conclusion that a good dual roller is weaker then the c5r chain ?
also i have posted that picture because you did not seem to have a clue what a dual roller chain looks like
so please give me some actual facts to prove me wrong
Over the years, we have never had a factory, ls2 or C5r single chain ever break on a customers car.
BUT
somehow, we have had a couple customers break double roller chains (they purchased the parts from us and did their own installations).... each were many months after installation at least and after alot of passes, then reported that "boom" out of no where engine died and broke just like that.
We run Katch C5r chains on most builds with stock LS2 sprockets.
BUT
somehow, we have had a couple customers break double roller chains (they purchased the parts from us and did their own installations).... each were many months after installation at least and after alot of passes, then reported that "boom" out of no where engine died and broke just like that.
We run Katch C5r chains on most builds with stock LS2 sprockets.
did any snap that you have installed ?
what broke on the dual roller, the chain or the cam gear flew off ?
where all the spacers used ?
Last edited by elias_799; Apr 12, 2010 at 01:37 AM.
first of all in you previous post you have said that allot of people will disagree with me that it will take more effort for the motor to turn a dual roller then a single and i have proven you wrong
also i have said that it is not allot more mass then a single, but i guess you forgot to read that part
i have giving you proper facts as to why a proper dual roller is stronger then the katech all you have given me is that it has never been broken
and i am sorry are you a metalluragist ? if not how are you coming to a conclusion that a good dual roller is weaker then the c5r chain ?
also i have posted that picture because you did not seem to have a clue what a dual roller chain looks like
so please give me some actual facts to prove me wrong
also i have said that it is not allot more mass then a single, but i guess you forgot to read that part
i have giving you proper facts as to why a proper dual roller is stronger then the katech all you have given me is that it has never been broken
and i am sorry are you a metalluragist ? if not how are you coming to a conclusion that a good dual roller is weaker then the c5r chain ?
also i have posted that picture because you did not seem to have a clue what a dual roller chain looks like
so please give me some actual facts to prove me wrong
I think the fact that Katech has never broken a C5R chain and has never has a customer break one in a racing envirmonment or otherwise, is a pretty strong statement in itself. Again, double row guys cant claim the same now can they!
I'm not the only one here pointing out that double rows can be more weak than a chain like the C5R. The way that the chain is constructed and it's material lend more to the durability than whether it's a single or a double. GM even found that most timing chain failures were caused by harmonics and the chain slapping violently at high rpm. They had this issue on the LS2 coupled with some bad chains. The fact they were singles was never an issue from the engineers perspective. A good chain and a damper cured that issue.
Again, I am fully aware of what a double row looks like. Valliant attempt at condescention though. You get a gold star!
I have personally seen a few double rows fail in mild performance applications. What you are giving are not facts but opinions and beliefs you hold. And further I stated alot of people would disagree that a double is stronger genius. But thanks for putting words into my mouth. And on to the metalluragist comment, I am not one nor have I ever claimed to be but in my search for the best timing chain I had the opportunity to speak to several at length. Some that happened to even be familiar with timing chains in high performance applications. They chuckled when I asked about why so many people think doubles are far superior to singles and then went on to explain why it is often times not true.
I think the fact that Katech has never broken a C5R chain and has never has a customer break one in a racing envirmonment or otherwise, is a pretty strong statement in itself. Again, double row guys cant claim the same now can they!
I'm not the only one here pointing out that double rows can be more weak than a chain like the C5R. The way that the chain is constructed and it's material lend more to the durability than whether it's a single or a double. GM even found that most timing chain failures were caused by harmonics and the chain slapping violently at high rpm. They had this issue on the LS2 coupled with some bad chains. The fact they were singles was never an issue from the engineers perspective. A good chain and a damper cured that issue.
Again, I am fully aware of what a double row looks like. Valliant attempt at condescention though. You get a gold star!
I think the fact that Katech has never broken a C5R chain and has never has a customer break one in a racing envirmonment or otherwise, is a pretty strong statement in itself. Again, double row guys cant claim the same now can they!
I'm not the only one here pointing out that double rows can be more weak than a chain like the C5R. The way that the chain is constructed and it's material lend more to the durability than whether it's a single or a double. GM even found that most timing chain failures were caused by harmonics and the chain slapping violently at high rpm. They had this issue on the LS2 coupled with some bad chains. The fact they were singles was never an issue from the engineers perspective. A good chain and a damper cured that issue.
Again, I am fully aware of what a double row looks like. Valliant attempt at condescention though. You get a gold star!
there numerous dual rollers in cars making well over 2500whp at the drag strip, i think if a dual roller will last a season of that it must be pretty strong.
again, i have never said every dual roller is better then the c5r there are obviously bad ones out there, just like there are bag single rollers out there, but it is not really fair to compare a shitty dual roller to a good single, and that is what you are doing
thanks for the gold star !!!!
I don't recall comparing a low quality double row to a good single like the C5R to make my point. Some of the better quality doubles have failed. Again the C5R has not. It's really hard to argue that as i have said over and over.
Lets step away from the racing envirmonent for a moment. Even as brutal as it can be you are still not leaving anything, especially timing chains in service for more than a year max(most are changed out much more often). Now in a high hp street car we are all looking to get the most power but have long term durability. Here several high end doubles have failed while the C5R has not.
My thoughts are this, you can only make something so strong for the intended application and anticipated stresses. Adding more material can help, but only to a point.
Lets step away from the racing envirmonent for a moment. Even as brutal as it can be you are still not leaving anything, especially timing chains in service for more than a year max(most are changed out much more often). Now in a high hp street car we are all looking to get the most power but have long term durability. Here several high end doubles have failed while the C5R has not.
My thoughts are this, you can only make something so strong for the intended application and anticipated stresses. Adding more material can help, but only to a point.
I just bought a N-Motion double roller LS2 timing set from SDPC for my build. Anyone have any experience with this timing set? It's the same DR LS2 timing set listed on TSP's website, same part number too.
