364ci forged engine: best intake and cyl head combo? Comp Turbo CT81 setup
08-09-2010, 09:05 PM
#1
364ci forged engine: best intake and cyl head combo? Comp Turbo CT81 setup I have a 364ci forged (stock crank) shortblock built for a turbo setup with K1 rods, upgraded rod bolts, and coated Diamond pistons with HD wrist pins, and the main caps are doweled/pinned.
Still working out what heads and intake to run and would like some suggestions.
I currently have an LS6 intake and ported stock TB with Chiseled Perf 1500hp A/W intercooler. The idea was to run some TFS 220cc heads with minor hand blending and Inconnel exhaust valves. I have a Virgina Speed v3 turbo cam also. Mount the intercooler under the dash and reverse the intake.
My goal is 1000rwhp or whatever a Comp Turbo CP81 turbo will make (1150hp rating), divided T4 1.15 A/R housing, 4" DP outlet which is what I ordered. I'm going to run e85 also and I can't run a race GMPP or Victor JR style aluminum intake with a hat as I want to keep it underhood for better aero. The car will be a stripped race style car for the street, drags, TX Mile, and road race if I can keep it cool. Going in my other '93 RX-7 I have collecting dust. Goal is 2500lbs wet with fuel running CF doors/hatch/lexan windows.
I was thinking either the following options:
1) TFS 220cc/LS6 intake combo (has made 1000rwhp in the past easily)
2) ETP LS7 style heads for 4" bore (I have an LS7 intake from my other car and billet rails)
3) MAST motorsports LS3 style heads with LS3 intake (these heads are rather pricey....)
Will running a ported stock TB hurt the power potential vs. a 90mm sized intake? I assume with forced induction it wouldn't be as drastic....
Thanks to those that reply... I would appreciate your input!
Still working out what heads and intake to run and would like some suggestions.
I currently have an LS6 intake and ported stock TB with Chiseled Perf 1500hp A/W intercooler. The idea was to run some TFS 220cc heads with minor hand blending and Inconnel exhaust valves. I have a Virgina Speed v3 turbo cam also. Mount the intercooler under the dash and reverse the intake.
My goal is 1000rwhp or whatever a Comp Turbo CP81 turbo will make (1150hp rating), divided T4 1.15 A/R housing, 4" DP outlet which is what I ordered. I'm going to run e85 also and I can't run a race GMPP or Victor JR style aluminum intake with a hat as I want to keep it underhood for better aero. The car will be a stripped race style car for the street, drags, TX Mile, and road race if I can keep it cool. Going in my other '93 RX-7 I have collecting dust. Goal is 2500lbs wet with fuel running CF doors/hatch/lexan windows.
I was thinking either the following options:
1) TFS 220cc/LS6 intake combo (has made 1000rwhp in the past easily)
2) ETP LS7 style heads for 4" bore (I have an LS7 intake from my other car and billet rails)
3) MAST motorsports LS3 style heads with LS3 intake (these heads are rather pricey....)
Will running a ported stock TB hurt the power potential vs. a 90mm sized intake? I assume with forced induction it wouldn't be as drastic....
Thanks to those that reply... I would appreciate your input!
08-09-2010, 11:57 PM
#2
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What RPM do you plan on running? The 1.15 T4 may be a concern if planning on 6k plus extended. You'll have to take BP readings
My .02, the 220's with a 90mm will be a better match to your turbo with a 364.
Bigger TB so the intake is the restriction, not the TB.
I already wrote a book in PM's so you know my theories already.
Short version, I think the big heads need an 88mm and T6 to be matched.
That's based on where I think it would run on the compressor map.
Also, the new AEM EMS has thermocouple inputs for fuel trim.
That can save you on extended runs.
Comp doesn't list that turbo.... what is it?
My .02, the 220's with a 90mm will be a better match to your turbo with a 364.
Bigger TB so the intake is the restriction, not the TB.
I already wrote a book in PM's so you know my theories already.
Short version, I think the big heads need an 88mm and T6 to be matched.
That's based on where I think it would run on the compressor map.
Also, the new AEM EMS has thermocouple inputs for fuel trim.
That can save you on extended runs.
Comp doesn't list that turbo.... what is it?
08-10-2010, 05:09 PM
#4
Mark, IMHO if you're going to the extent of murduring out a 3rd gen RX7 (carbon parts, A2W in pass seat, cutting the firewall up, e85, etc) you should wait and put more motor in the car and make some big power (LSX 427 or bigger with a T91 or bigger). Your current plans would be good for ~800-850ish rwhp and wouldn't warrant stripping out the car for it. Toss the 6.0L in your other FD for daily and autocross... Hope to see you there in OCT.
08-10-2010, 06:59 PM
#5
This car is a toy and I have no intention of building a $15-20K engine setup for it so I'm sticking with a basic 364ci for this motor. I like to road race for 20mins vs. drag race for 8 second intervals. That is where my funds go.
I guess I'll have to run it and find out then.... since it is all theory thus far. I know Mike Brown made 1000rwhp and ran mid 8's with a 364ci shortblock and out of the box AFR 225's/LS6 intake/stock ported TB a couple years back in a 3500lb Fbody. Not sure what turbo he ran.... T6 88mm I think....
A T6 is simply huge. I bought a T6 GT88 previously which was 48lbs and the size of a human head. Sold that one. This unit is 20lbs approx and will be easier to package. I'll run it and simply see how it does. I want quick spool and we'll see if this delivers. If a Precision PT88 T4 unit can go high 8's on a 3800lb Fbody.... This turbo should be fine for my car.
Buick GN guys are making 600rwhp with a tiny 62mm ported stock TB and heads that barely flow over 200cfm on the intake. I would think a 78mm TB and 300cfm+ heads wouldn't be much of a bottleneck.
Any other input on running stock LS6 intake/TB and the TFS220cc heads vs. spending a couple more grand on the ETP or MAST style heads? I don't want to go beyond the limit of what a stock 4 bolt block can handle which seems to be around 1000rwhp before sleeves crack over time and heads lift. I plan to spin it to around 7000rpm or slightly higher. I can always buy a larger turbine housing if needed.
I guess I'll have to run it and find out then.... since it is all theory thus far. I know Mike Brown made 1000rwhp and ran mid 8's with a 364ci shortblock and out of the box AFR 225's/LS6 intake/stock ported TB a couple years back in a 3500lb Fbody. Not sure what turbo he ran.... T6 88mm I think....
A T6 is simply huge. I bought a T6 GT88 previously which was 48lbs and the size of a human head. Sold that one. This unit is 20lbs approx and will be easier to package. I'll run it and simply see how it does. I want quick spool and we'll see if this delivers. If a Precision PT88 T4 unit can go high 8's on a 3800lb Fbody.... This turbo should be fine for my car.
Buick GN guys are making 600rwhp with a tiny 62mm ported stock TB and heads that barely flow over 200cfm on the intake. I would think a 78mm TB and 300cfm+ heads wouldn't be much of a bottleneck.
Any other input on running stock LS6 intake/TB and the TFS220cc heads vs. spending a couple more grand on the ETP or MAST style heads? I don't want to go beyond the limit of what a stock 4 bolt block can handle which seems to be around 1000rwhp before sleeves crack over time and heads lift. I plan to spin it to around 7000rpm or slightly higher. I can always buy a larger turbine housing if needed.
08-10-2010, 09:37 PM
#6
If it's more of a budget build like you say and you want to run it and see what happens then there's no reason to go high dollar on heads and intake. On an FI application big heads and intake will only show real gains on a setup that is maximizing their use (ie big turbo, high rpms, high boost, etc). Can't go wrong with an ls6 and ported TB on this setup.
08-10-2010, 10:51 PM
#7
I'm in the same boat as Mark, Same turbo only with a 377 cu. in. setup. I have a nice set of WCCH Stage 3 ported LS3 heads with Inconel exhaust valves and I was going to run a LS3 intake. I'm not sure what the limit of the heads will be exactly, this is a street setup and will occasionally track it. 7,000 rpm max. I have the 1.15 housing but Comp does offer a 1.32 housing as well. I'm not sure if that would be better. I want good turbo response but don't want to choke the motor either. I'm also looking hard at the TFS 220 heads as well for their thicker decks but I'm not sure if it will be worth the hassle of selling my heads to switch to the TFS 220/LS2 intake setup. My LS3 heads have 2.200 intake valves, 1.60 exhaust valves, the heads were Cryo treated and they are a rare LS9 style rotary casting L92/LS3 head. They flow 365 cfm at .600 and I'm using a LS7 cam(near .600 lift at 1.8 ratio). Any thoughts?
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08-11-2010, 12:37 AM
#8
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Buick guys think your a wuss if your aren't running 25+psi too.
Buick comparisons are for twin bbc builds......
Just some observations, I'm too tired to be PC and mean no offense....
Guys are running 80mm compressors on 383sbc w/ afr195's.
What's another 100cfm big port LS3 head going to do for the boost on that size compressor? - right off the map.
Imop, the square ports need an 88mm minimum and at least an 87mm turbine.
For high rpm, at least an 87mm turbine for a 350....
Comp does does a lot of import stuff from looking at there web site. I suspect they think small out of habit when it comes to V8s'. Nelson Racing had issues with ITS specing him on the small side too. He wanted 900 fhp worth. I got 2 58mm's in the garage cheap because of it.
Nelson ended up trying 6 more twin turbos until he got what he wanted.
This was in 05' before he went big name.
Buick comparisons are for twin bbc builds......
Just some observations, I'm too tired to be PC and mean no offense....
Guys are running 80mm compressors on 383sbc w/ afr195's.
What's another 100cfm big port LS3 head going to do for the boost on that size compressor? - right off the map.
Imop, the square ports need an 88mm minimum and at least an 87mm turbine.
For high rpm, at least an 87mm turbine for a 350....
Comp does does a lot of import stuff from looking at there web site. I suspect they think small out of habit when it comes to V8s'. Nelson Racing had issues with ITS specing him on the small side too. He wanted 900 fhp worth. I got 2 58mm's in the garage cheap because of it.
Nelson ended up trying 6 more twin turbos until he got what he wanted.
This was in 05' before he went big name.
08-11-2010, 10:10 AM
#9
What RPM do you plan on running? The 1.15 T4 may be a concern if planning on 6k plus extended. You'll have to take BP readings
My .02, the 220's with a 90mm will be a better match to your turbo with a 364.
Bigger TB so the intake is the restriction, not the TB.
I already wrote a book in PM's so you know my theories already.
Short version, I think the big heads need an 88mm and T6 to be matched.
That's based on where I think it would run on the compressor map.
Also, the new AEM EMS has thermocouple inputs for fuel trim.
That can save you on extended runs.
Comp doesn't list that turbo.... what is it?
My .02, the 220's with a 90mm will be a better match to your turbo with a 364.
Bigger TB so the intake is the restriction, not the TB.
I already wrote a book in PM's so you know my theories already.
Short version, I think the big heads need an 88mm and T6 to be matched.
That's based on where I think it would run on the compressor map.
Also, the new AEM EMS has thermocouple inputs for fuel trim.
That can save you on extended runs.
Comp doesn't list that turbo.... what is it?
The heads/cam intake should suit the rpm range the motor is going to run at is all.
08-11-2010, 10:12 AM
#10
I'm in the same boat as Mark, Same turbo only with a 377 cu. in. setup. I have a nice set of WCCH Stage 3 ported LS3 heads with Inconel exhaust valves and I was going to run a LS3 intake. I'm not sure what the limit of the heads will be exactly, this is a street setup and will occasionally track it. 7,000 rpm max. I have the 1.15 housing but Comp does offer a 1.32 housing as well. I'm not sure if that would be better. I want good turbo response but don't want to choke the motor either. I'm also looking hard at the TFS 220 heads as well for their thicker decks but I'm not sure if it will be worth the hassle of selling my heads to switch to the TFS 220/LS2 intake setup. My LS3 heads have 2.200 intake valves, 1.60 exhaust valves, the heads were Cryo treated and they are a rare LS9 style rotary casting L92/LS3 head. They flow 365 cfm at .600 and I'm using a LS7 cam(near .600 lift at 1.8 ratio). Any thoughts?
08-11-2010, 10:18 AM
#11
The intake valve weight is something I've been concerend about. The turbo we are using will support enough airflow to easily meet my power goals, so with the higher flowing heads it will just require less boost pressure to get there is the way I see it.
08-11-2010, 04:53 PM
#13
I'm making about 1000 rwhp with my 370ci PT88 (T4 96 ar) combo. Not maxed out yet either. I do think that I could benefit from a bigger exh housing but getting anything bigger than a 4" DP out of the engine compartment starts to get tricky. Not sure if a bigger AR helps without a bigger DP.
08-11-2010, 07:09 PM
#15
Its been dyno proven that the ls6 w/78mm tb will out hp the ls2/90mm, plus, on the ls2 map sensor sits behind the tb instead of the back of the manifold, so to run an ls2 you might have to get an extension for the map sensor wire to reach depending on your wiring harness,
08-11-2010, 08:03 PM
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Its been dyno proven that the ls6 w/78mm tb will out hp the ls2/90mm, plus, on the ls2 map sensor sits behind the tb instead of the back of the manifold, so to run an ls2 you might have to get an extension for the map sensor wire to reach depending on your wiring harness,
n/a or boosted? Link?
why do you have GT4788 and 4l60E in your sig?
Glory to GOD i'm going for 8's in my street car !
96' formula ws6, 382ci LS1, Rossler T3 4l60e, Precision billet gt4788/1500hp a2w IC on the way!..............so far, hee hee.
96' formula ws6, 382ci LS1, Rossler T3 4l60e, Precision billet gt4788/1500hp a2w IC on the way!..............so far, hee hee.
08-12-2010, 11:58 PM
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[QUOTE=gnx7;13717253]
A T6 is simply huge. I bought a T6 GT88 previously which was 48lbs and the size of a human head. Sold that one. This unit is 20lbs approx and will be easier to package. I'll run it and simply see how it does. I want quick spool and we'll see if this delivers. If a Precision PT88 T4 unit can go high 8's on a 3800lb Fbody.... This turbo should be fine for my car.
QUOTE]
Who would want that turbo, Sounds crappy
. Build is underway. BTW
Andy
A T6 is simply huge. I bought a T6 GT88 previously which was 48lbs and the size of a human head. Sold that one. This unit is 20lbs approx and will be easier to package. I'll run it and simply see how it does. I want quick spool and we'll see if this delivers. If a Precision PT88 T4 unit can go high 8's on a 3800lb Fbody.... This turbo should be fine for my car.
QUOTE]
Who would want that turbo, Sounds crappy
. Build is underway. BTWAndy