what size wastegate do I need?
01-29-2011, 10:27 PM
#42
This 'Tial' guy however has not proven dick to me, and it really irks me when people just assume that he knows what he's talking about because his screen name is 'Tial'. I deal with people with his attitude on a daily basis. They're called engineers. Only these are the engineers who sit in front of a computer and come up with models and crunch numbers, then say definitive things like "negative" when answering questions, when they have no "real world" experience.
I've worked as an engineer for the past 8+ years. I have no degree and run into people like this all the time. Hence why I'm now finally back at school and half way through my bachelors.
What most "engineers" don't realize is that models and calculations don't always transfer 100% into the real world. Tial guy has said flat out that a wastegate (doesn't specify size) will most definitely not work when plumbed at a 90* angle. Well my personal car has a 46mm Precision mounted at a 90* angle and it most definitely does work controlling boost levels in the single digits. When I first replied, I even agreed with the guy, stating that while 90* is not optimal, in many cases it will work effectively. I never said "Hey this Tial guy is full of ****, mount it however you want and it will control boost down to .01 psi". He's the one who gave a definitive no.
I did a quick search, here's a few setups where the wastegate is mounted at 90* and still controls boost into the single digits.
https://ls1tech.com/forums/forced-in...ts-pics-8.html 90* at the merge, running 9 psi (See post on 10-23-10 for his 9psi comment)
https://ls1tech.com/forums/forced-in...kit-gto-2.html Twins @90* @ 9psi. Yea twins but he states it will NOT work at 90*
Plus my own car, and if you do a quick search, many more as well. As well as most STS cars out there that have the wastegate at almost a 90* angle and control boost down to ~6psi.
And no my car did not peak and drop off or anything when on low boost.
Anyways, my whole point is exactly as I said originally. While a 90* angle is not ideal, in most cases it will still control boost effectively. I just hate it when people chime in and say something as definitive as "negative" when they clearly have no idea, even if they happen to work for a respected company and show a couple computer generated models.
01-29-2011, 11:23 PM
#43
I guess my issue is if your going to put the time and effort in in fabricating a turbo system, take the time and do it the best way possible instead of IMO half assing it. Sure a wastegate mounted 90 degrees to the hot pipe might work, it just doesn't work as well and efficiently as mounting the valve face toward incoming airflow. I've worked with way too many guys around the country and documented how 90 degree mounted wastegates dont work correctly.
Is the boost lazy when the setup nears peak boost?
Does the boost overrun the preset boost level?
Most of the 90 degree setups have these 2 problems among others that are because of how the wastegates are plumbed or mounted.
Is the boost lazy when the setup nears peak boost?
Does the boost overrun the preset boost level?
Most of the 90 degree setups have these 2 problems among others that are because of how the wastegates are plumbed or mounted.
01-29-2011, 11:35 PM
#44
I understand what you're saying. But sometimes people aren't going all out for the absolute best setup. If you only have a goal of XXX and a certain setup gets you that, then what's the problem. Sometimes space constraints and the unwillingness to let go of certain creature comforts doesn't allow for mounting everything in the "idea" location. For me, if I was willing to remove my AC compressor I'd have much more room and could mount the wg differently. I wasn't willing to settle for that trade off.
As far as the boost being lazy near peak boost, I'm not sure what you mean. If you could elaborate more I could try to give you my input on my setup.
As far as over running the set boost, no I've never had that problem with this setup. No matter the boost level that I've ran, it's always hit it and settled within a couple kpa. Not enough to notice on the mechanical boost gage.
Some of this "debate" will come down to one's definition of "effectively" and "efficiently". But still the fact remains that the wg will still usually function when mounted 90*. And if that's the only choice you have, then you can get away with it.
As far as the boost being lazy near peak boost, I'm not sure what you mean. If you could elaborate more I could try to give you my input on my setup.
As far as over running the set boost, no I've never had that problem with this setup. No matter the boost level that I've ran, it's always hit it and settled within a couple kpa. Not enough to notice on the mechanical boost gage.
Some of this "debate" will come down to one's definition of "effectively" and "efficiently". But still the fact remains that the wg will still usually function when mounted 90*. And if that's the only choice you have, then you can get away with it.
02-08-2011, 04:50 PM
#46
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IMO, if you're doing something, you should do it right. why half *** it? you have an entire engine bay, you can mount the turbo/merge/wastegate anywhere, even outside the engine bay.
02-08-2011, 06:47 PM
#47
I understand what you're saying. But sometimes people aren't going all out for the absolute best setup. If you only have a goal of XXX and a certain setup gets you that, then what's the problem. Sometimes space constraints and the unwillingness to let go of certain creature comforts doesn't allow for mounting everything in the "idea" location. For me, if I was willing to remove my AC compressor I'd have much more room and could mount the wg differently. I wasn't willing to settle for that trade off.
I don't see how mounting a wastegate at 90* constitutes "half assing" a setup. Especially when it works.
02-08-2011, 06:54 PM
#48
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if people can figure out a way to fit two t6 turbos, two 60mm waste gates (positioned properly), and two four inch downpipes INSIDE the engine bay of an fbody, trust me. you can figure it out.
and you're telling me you've never seen a turbo outside the engine compartment? either half or all the way? my turbine, merge, and WG are on the outside of my frame rail.
and you're telling me you've never seen a turbo outside the engine compartment? either half or all the way? my turbine, merge, and WG are on the outside of my frame rail.
02-08-2011, 07:42 PM
#49
Like I first said, sacrifices ALWAYS have to be made. If you're not willing to sacrifice AC, PS, etc, then you have the room and can mount everything in its "ideal" location.
If you're not willing to give up those luxuries, then you have to do what works.
People will do what they want. I'm fine with that. I did what I wanted and it works fine for me.
01-11-2012, 08:29 PM
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01-11-2012, 08:33 PM
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06-29-2012, 10:55 AM
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Having good wastegate flow priority is "ideal".
Is it a must? No.
What you will find is that many times, less than ideal wastegate mounting requires larger wastegates to be used to achieve the same results that you could have achieved with a smaller gate with good flow priority.
Is it a must? No.
What you will find is that many times, less than ideal wastegate mounting requires larger wastegates to be used to achieve the same results that you could have achieved with a smaller gate with good flow priority.
06-29-2012, 12:11 PM
#60
Having good wastegate flow priority is "ideal".
Is it a must? No.
What you will find is that many times, less than ideal wastegate mounting requires larger wastegates to be used to achieve the same results that you could have achieved with a smaller gate with good flow priority.
Is it a must? No.
What you will find is that many times, less than ideal wastegate mounting requires larger wastegates to be used to achieve the same results that you could have achieved with a smaller gate with good flow priority.
And my WG is at a 90* and I know that its not ideal, but it works and controls boost very well. Marty actually helped me set up my Eboost2 on the dyno, look how flat we got each boost curve:
now i fully agree that if you were building a full on race car, then you should have the means to make a proper WG angle. But for us street f-body guys without a lot of room, you can get by with a 90 and make it work. My 50 was great when running 8psi, all the way up to now 17psi