Rob Raymer

I wasn't going to mention this earlier, but now I think I better. (Since I'm commiting to not misleading people and everything...) If you are/were running 18volts to the Walbro fuel pump, that is/was your whole problem. At 16.0 volts, that pump starts to cavitate. Which is why I pointed out that I am running 15.9 volts. So, no wonder both of the Incon cars run out of fuel at the same power level....

Food for thought...just don't want Spring to roll around and have everyone get the idea that they can turn up the happy juice to their fuel pumps and support more HP. You know, just because "Harlan said it was okay to run 18 volts..."

cablebandit

iTrader: (37)

Rob I THINK that Harlans original intention was NOT to knock you at all. Hell we are all impressed, including Harlan, with what you have done. I THINK he just doesn't want people who are new with forced induction to think that they can just slap this setup on without an A$$load of prep and knowledge which you have. A lot of US have blown motors because we were naive....over optimistic on our fuel setups or just plain ignorant as to what it takes to make a FI setup reliable. At least this is what has caused MY problems. As a moderator, I THINK Harlan was just trying to head off some FI newbies before they get out of hand. You and Harlan know what it takes to do what you are doing with that kit. Most of us don't have near the understanding of what it takes to make big power like y'all. I hope you guys are still friends. If I am wrong about my assumptions as to Harlans intentions, I apologize and will butt out. You are a sponsor.....a sponsor with a badass car. Harlan is a moderator with a badasscar. We leghump you guys and feed off ANY info you give us. Right or wrong...that's what we do. Knowing that, I feel Harlan doesn't want some of the FI newbies..including myself...to blow their combos up because we didn't understand the WHOLE picture. Both of you guys need to back away from the keyboard a minute and take in just how influential both of you guys ARE with the LS1 community. I will crawl back into my hole now with my disassembled turd

cablebandit

iTrader: (37)

My motor blew up....hellllpppp!!! I have a turbo ls1. I read somewhere that Rob was saying something about 18v to the fuel pump and he said Harlan said it was ok too. I did that and added a alky/methanol kit cause I read where Harlan said it was making 150hp extra. Rob said we could tune this thing with 4 or 5 dyno pulls. I figured I could run at 650rwhp till I got to the dyno but it blew up before I got there. I don't understand??!! Oh yeah...Rob and Harlan said **** taste like chicken and cold **** taste like beer. I am planning a free cookout for everyone!!!!

Yes that kinda stuff happens...take your posts out of context...misquote you...etc. Not your fault..but it happens. It is the "fame" you have to deal with for being so damn fast!!!! Now who is coming to the cookout???

2001WS6Vert

This sounds alot like a Bobby Knight press conference.

J-Rod

I'm not taking sides in this one. I do have one comment. In the Turbo Buick world we used to run alcohol injectors at high boost levels to control detonation. It would cool the incoming charge down and keep the car from detonating on pump gas. We never saw big HP gains from the acohol itself per se but we did see higher HP from being able to run more boost. I would consider going and getting some Toluene or Xylene and adding it to your pump gas. Its so stable that it really works well for turbo cars with lots of cylinder pressure.

S_J_H

I don't get the controversy at all???
Alcohol works plain and simple. Rob is not being secretive about using it so what's the problem here?

Also who cares how much you use? What's the difference of using a lot of alcohol vs giant injectors and c16? Both get the job done.
Although 8oz per pull is only maybe 100hp of fueling with a ethanol/methanol blend.

Nice thing about methanol vs gas, is that it is very A-F ratio tolerant as long as it's on the rich side. Also weather changes do not throw off the tune-up nearly as much as compared to gas.
You get big charge cooling effects and as long as you keep water out of the mix it CAN add power if used as 10% or more of the total fuel volume burned.Maybe 1% per each 10%?

And as far as worrying about others blowing their motors and not comprehending what they read on these boards, well you can't protect people from themselves Nitrous companies know this very well.

I'm building a "cool" methanol system out of the norm after using a pumped system for the last 3 years.
Boost bleed powered, air mist nozzle through the blower inlet.
Progressive alcohol flow with boost with no pump or controller.
Pure methanol, has about 1/3 the viscosity of water and won't erode the impeller if pre atomized. No pump used and better atomization at only 13psi with a good air nozzle than the 140psi shurflo/misting nozzles I had been using.
Also a lot of guys don't realize this, but when you add water to 50% methanol it doesn't behave like you think it might. Viscosity will be 3-times
greater than for pure methanol, and 50% higher than for pure water!
This makes atomizing much worse and also makes a "hard" mix for a spinning impeller.
liquid (25 ºC) density (g/cm3) viscosity (centipoise)
water 1.00 0.89
methanol (CH3OH) 0.79 0.547
ethylene glycol (C2H4(OH)2) 1.11 16
50/50 water/methanol (v/v) 0.93 1.62

A lot of the industrial centrifugal compressor and gas turbines fog the inlet to increase mass flow output/power output.
If you get the idea I like alcohol your right!

I have some experience with toluene. It works only OK IMO. My gas smells like plastic model cement all the time.
It tends to create carbon and does not work all that great dumped into pump fuels compared to a true race fuel IMO.
Also for you leaded race fuel guys-
http://www.kemcooil.com/specials.php
60 grams pure TEL per gallon. Add some of this and a bit of toluene to your pump fuel and you'll have a serious race fuel in a pinch.

Steve
modified vortech- http://community.webshots.com/user/s_j_h

SScam68

iTrader: (20)

power is power right?

69firebird

iTrader: (14)

well, I like harlans car, and think what rob has done is really impressive.

Harlan with his technical background and job have made some things that are impossible for the comman man to get ahold of, and his car runs good. The still pictures of his engine bay run faster than 10.9 i think those turbos right up front oohhhh

robs kit, I have thought impressive since he came out with it. I have a turbo tech kit, and robs is that but better.

this thread just got out of hand no one hates each other i dont think they are just trying to help and it stepped on the toes of someone else.
ed
firebird455@onebox.com

y2khawk

iTrader: (5)

LOL, ugggg

This was never intended to turn into this.

alcohol injection works, i never denied that.

And I was just making the statement that the alternator will make 18V, try me i played with it and the pump.

Shinobi'sZ

Ahhh I can see that the same stupid **** goes on over here that goes on over at the CF.

I have had my ATI blown car tuned with an 85mm MAF and made 630+rwhp. Once the MAF is maxed out..we just went to bigger injectors to dump more fuel.

Andy from A&A Corvettes has an F1 Procharged car that made 670/640 rwhp/rwtq using a stock Z06 (85mm) MAF and 57lb Siemens Injectors..he is going to go to the new larger ones coming out.

I have a TTi Vette using 42lb injectors, the old stock MAF 97-2000 (small one with screen). They have an LPE 427Twin Turbo that makes over 700/800 rwhp/rwtq with no Alcohol Injection...that has the EXACT same PUMP, MAF, and FMS 42lb (green top) Injectors that MY car has...in fact the **** on my car was copied off the LPE car with regards to Tune, Fuel Pump, and Injectors....if you know how to TUNE it can be done...obviously.

slow

iTrader: (7)

but the question is.

do all of those cars use the stock/modified maf, to register all of the airflow.

If they don't, then what point does it prove? You can do it with PE tables, ect, but that is not the right way to tune.

IF those cars do register all of the air through the maf, and the computer is able to understand it, how is it done?



Ryan.

Rob Raymer

Bottom line, the right way to do it is through a Stand Alone Fuel Injection system (i.e. FAST or Gen7). However, if you don't have an extra $3500 or so to spend, then tuning it in the PE with a $550 LS1Edit is really the only option. And the point is, big power CAN be made with it. For how long? Who knows. How safe is it at these power levels (over 500rwhp)? I'm sure not very safe....

...If you want safe...buy a Volvo.

Shinobi'sZ

hmmm
If you have a car and the AFR is correct and you get know KR or detonation..than who is to say that it is not right?????

I think FAST and Wideband 02 onboard offers the most reassurance of maintaining the AFR..but I have seen plenty of cars tuned with a stock MAF making plenty of power...The LPE 427 TT that turns 8 Seconcd 1/4 mile does not use FAST...it uses an old small MAF....so is their car not tuned right???

I hear what your saying and agree to some point..but FAST is not a be all end all...and there are cars running 8 sec 1/4 mile without FAST...Didn't ARE's 422 w/NOS run in the 8's too??? I don't remember it having the FAST 2 or 3 years ago when Wade made that run.

y2khawk

iTrader: (5)

You're adding fuel and air, ie direct port, without the PCM being involved there.

Apples to oranges

C4VetteLS1

Hey there, I started this post because i was interested in getting some info and help on a single project im doing myself that is going to be highly low budget/big power.

Please leave your criticizing of Rob QMP out of this post as he is doing nothing but spreading info and results on what he has done. He doesnt call anyone else wrong or incorrect in the way they build thier cars...why slam him ??


Rob: thank you much for all the info on your car. You dont have to share it, but for guys that are doing it on thier own it really helps more than you know.

Im doing a single t76/88 setup. Currently building the whole turbo kit myself runs me in the $3000 range, and i built a very low dollar find every deal 408" for my car for another $3000. So i plan on making approx 800 rwhp with less than 10k invested in everything.

What im curious on, is id like to use the alcohol setup you use. And im curious do just have it come on right as the mass air max'es out? (a certain psi). The alcohol definately seems like a great way to bring in alot of fuel without going huge on fuel system/injectors/aftermarket EFI setups that cost REALLY big bucks.

What would happen if you took the car up to 5000 rpm and then stood on it?? would it add fuel alot different?? I mean is the tuning assuming that youll spool it off a certain rpm, if you spool it ALOT later will it just run richer or not compensate for fuel in time

(if you spool it starting at 5000 rpm and stab the gas youll spool a TON faster than stabbing the throttle at 2000rpm)

Pro Stock John

iTrader: (34)

700-800rwhp with forced induction is best done by getting an aftermarket engine management system like FAST or ACCEL.

I think you can do 700rwhp by getting a Pro-M MAF and running the biggest high impedance injectors you can find, and some 104 unleaded gas.

I think that you can do the same for 800rwhp but that's pushing it in a big way. For 800rwhp I would not try to do it with the stock pcm but that's just me, I did just buy a FAST system and am using it on my car.

I'm not sure I consider this much use of methanol safe for drag racing, the jury is out until someone does it.

I'm making around 750rwhp through a turbo 400 with:
FAST
83 lb Siemens injectors
Weldon 2025 external pump
Weldon regulator
SS Racing fuel rails
-10 to the front, -8 crossover, -6 return all braided

My fuel system will support up to 900rwhp and 800rwhp no problem. At 900rwhp I might have to raise my base fuel pressure from 43psi where it is now to maybe 50-60psi otherwise I am likely to run out of injector.

I am running VP C12 which is 108 motor octane LEADED.

C4VetteLS1

Im curious on why we consider this use of alcohol unsafe? Turbo Buick guys have been doing it for years...

PeePeeSlap

Gotta disagree there!
Although I've only seen one (a camaro at a detroit area shop lic# ssooblue or something) ls1 motorsports kit.
The 3 inch downpipe was crushed so badly to clear the steering shaft I don't know how it could flow air at all! The turbo was resting against the frame, one of the P/S lines was rubbing through on the belt, ETC.
Could have just been that an IDIOT installed the kit, but the turbo tech kits I have seen were WAY better designed and installed and made WAY more power!

Phate

iTrader: (2)

I don't think that people are saying that water/alky is unsafe per se, but if you forget to fill up the bottle, the pump fails, etc. then you are going to lose the motor if you are relying heavily on it.

Incidentally Aidan, it will be cool to see how our two combinations match up. I am going to be running an iron 404 motor with an Incon kit with the larger turbos. The car should be back together in another few weeks. PM me when you finish your project, I'd love to see it.

S_J_H

what?! You act like you just heard of this new fangled "methanol " stuff.

John, have you forgotten Indy cars run on nothing but methanol,
let's not forget all the blown alky(methanol) classes in drag racing!
not to mention some import guys making more power than you, on only 4 little tiny cylinders, have now switched to straight methanol and no intercoolers over race gas/intercooling as they were no longer needed with the tremendous charge cooling!

Methanol is the SUPERIOR fuel in drag racing. You make more hp using it vs race gas plain and simple, especially in a highly loaded blown motor where it really shines..
It's a big PITA to run as your full time fuel but as an add on fuel source it's easy.
There is a lot of ways to make power, this is one of them.
The only drawback is going to be at what level is to much wet flow for the intake to handle?
I would not want to run a stock fuel system and flow 400hp worth of methanol through the intake to make 900hp for example.
But 100-200hp should be fine IMO.
Steve

the jury came back on methanol like 50 years ago in drag racing!