How did QMP get stock MAF to work with 750-800 rwhp & ls1edit???
02-04-2004, 07:41 PM
#61
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Originally Posted by Scott 98Z M6
I don't think that people are saying that water/alky is unsafe per se, but if you forget to fill up the bottle, the pump fails, etc. then you are going to lose the motor if you are relying heavily on it.
Incidentally Aidan, it will be cool to see how our two combinations match up. I am going to be running an iron 404 motor with an Incon kit with the larger turbos. The car should be back together in another few weeks. PM me when you finish your project, I'd love to see it.
Incidentally Aidan, it will be cool to see how our two combinations match up. I am going to be running an iron 404 motor with an Incon kit with the larger turbos. The car should be back together in another few weeks. PM me when you finish your project, I'd love to see it.
Motor goes 
If you are going to race you have to know there is a chances you are taking. If there wasn't there would be alot more people doing it. I don't like the bickering between 2 really smart guys but I have learned some stuff from the both of you. Don't loose a friendship over something so dumb.
Keep it up guys. I love this kind of information.
C. J.
02-04-2004, 09:13 PM
#63
Originally Posted by Shinobi'sZ
hmmm
If you have a car and the AFR is correct and you get know KR or detonation..than who is to say that it is not right?????
I think FAST and Wideband 02 onboard offers the most reassurance of maintaining the AFR..but I have seen plenty of cars tuned with a stock MAF making plenty of power...The LPE 427 TT that turns 8 Seconcd 1/4 mile does not use FAST...it uses an old small MAF....so is their car not tuned right???
I hear what your saying and agree to some point..but FAST is not a be all end all...and there are cars running 8 sec 1/4 mile without FAST...Didn't ARE's 422 w/NOS run in the 8's too??? I don't remember it having the FAST 2 or 3 years ago when Wade made that run.
If you have a car and the AFR is correct and you get know KR or detonation..than who is to say that it is not right?????
I think FAST and Wideband 02 onboard offers the most reassurance of maintaining the AFR..but I have seen plenty of cars tuned with a stock MAF making plenty of power...The LPE 427 TT that turns 8 Seconcd 1/4 mile does not use FAST...it uses an old small MAF....so is their car not tuned right???
I hear what your saying and agree to some point..but FAST is not a be all end all...and there are cars running 8 sec 1/4 mile without FAST...Didn't ARE's 422 w/NOS run in the 8's too??? I don't remember it having the FAST 2 or 3 years ago when Wade made that run.
Once you exceed the maf limit, you go into blind mode, fine for dragracing, when you know the estimated density, and temperature, but no OEM company would ever release a vehicle that runs blind at high horsepower levels, that is just asking for long term durability problems (if the power alone does not kill the motor first)
Granted, those cars do run well, but most are shop cars, with unlimited dyno time, ect, Like the one car, with 100+ passes on the dyno to ensure proper AFR. For the averagejoe to buy that dyno time, that is the cost of the fast system, Truly not the best solution.
Ryan
02-04-2004, 09:31 PM
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Boy these winters are hard on us northerners.
No racing going on and all we can do to get a fix is play on a dyno and post about who has the highest numbers and what you did to get them.
Come on Spring. 
No racing going on and all we can do to get a fix is play on a dyno and post about who has the highest numbers and what you did to get them.
Come on Spring.
02-05-2004, 12:55 AM
#65
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Originally Posted by Scott 98Z M6
I don't think that people are saying that water/alky is unsafe per se, but if you forget to fill up the bottle, the pump fails, etc. then you are going to lose the motor if you are relying heavily on it.
Incidentally Aidan, it will be cool to see how our two combinations match up. I am going to be running an iron 404 motor with an Incon kit with the larger turbos. The car should be back together in another few weeks. PM me when you finish your project, I'd love to see it.
Incidentally Aidan, it will be cool to see how our two combinations match up. I am going to be running an iron 404 motor with an Incon kit with the larger turbos. The car should be back together in another few weeks. PM me when you finish your project, I'd love to see it.
Also, the alcohol runs a given amount constantly. It is jettable to add more so you can keep the a/f's in line. Id rather run a motor @ 10.5-11:1 a/f and lose 10-20 hp and just run some more boost to make up for it...Flat A/f curves look pretty on dyno sheets but sometimes you can lose a little hp and keep things on the safe side....
02-05-2004, 01:11 AM
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Originally Posted by PeePeeSlap
Gotta disagree there!
Although I've only seen one (a camaro at a detroit area shop lic# ssooblue or something) ls1 motorsports kit.
The 3 inch downpipe was crushed so badly to clear the steering shaft I don't know how it could flow air at all! The turbo was resting against the frame, one of the P/S lines was rubbing through on the belt, ETC.
Could have just been that an IDIOT installed the kit, but the turbo tech kits I have seen were WAY better designed and installed and made WAY more power!
Although I've only seen one (a camaro at a detroit area shop lic# ssooblue or something) ls1 motorsports kit.
The 3 inch downpipe was crushed so badly to clear the steering shaft I don't know how it could flow air at all! The turbo was resting against the frame, one of the P/S lines was rubbing through on the belt, ETC.
Could have just been that an IDIOT installed the kit, but the turbo tech kits I have seen were WAY better designed and installed and made WAY more power!
1 post ever, and this is it. Can we get rid of the Troll please??? Moderators?? I smell a very familiar smell....IP check?
02-05-2004, 09:27 AM
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The most difficult part about tuning a turbo setup with a stock computer is the fact that your boost is not really a function of RPM (as it is with a centrifugal supercharger), but rather a function of load. Up until the maf maxes out you are fine, but once it does, depending on the position of your right foot, you can have anywhere from vacuum to full boost. Since fueling has to be a fixed adder at rpm you end up having to fuel for full boost, and so you will be rich at any other position.
Now if your maf isn't maxing until 5000-6000rpm this probably isn't an issue, as you will be at full boost anyway - but as you make more power and you rail your maf sooner, it becomes more of an issue (you are more likely to be part throttle at 3krpm vs. 5k rpm).
Now the crux of the issue is the maf. If you can get a setup that properly meters the air, then the rest of the stuff will fall inline. Since the ls1 scales timing by g/cyl (effectively a maf based function), you will be able to scale your timing by "boost" level also (or at least full engine load measurements) - so it will work out pretty nicely. If pro-m or anyone else can come with a qualified drop in solution that will help with alot of these issues.
Now if your maf isn't maxing until 5000-6000rpm this probably isn't an issue, as you will be at full boost anyway - but as you make more power and you rail your maf sooner, it becomes more of an issue (you are more likely to be part throttle at 3krpm vs. 5k rpm).
Now the crux of the issue is the maf. If you can get a setup that properly meters the air, then the rest of the stuff will fall inline. Since the ls1 scales timing by g/cyl (effectively a maf based function), you will be able to scale your timing by "boost" level also (or at least full engine load measurements) - so it will work out pretty nicely. If pro-m or anyone else can come with a qualified drop in solution that will help with alot of these issues.
02-05-2004, 09:59 PM
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I think the original question was answered and then the post turned into a very entertaining misunderstanding, but I'll throw in my 2cents just because I think some people are still confused.
You can still tune the car after the MAF maxes out and Rob explained how this was done (modifying PE vs RPM and VE tables). It takes lots of trial and error (as ROB mentioned 100+ dyno pulls) and you pretty much have to tune for max boost and leave some HP on the table when not hitting max boost (as ChrisB mentioned). Superchargers are much easier since RPM and boost are directly related.
Yes, the tune will not be perfect and things will change with air density… but it is basically “good enough for government work”. You leave HP on the table and a MAF that could meter more air would be more adaptive and easier to tune.
BTW, some of the ls1 guys in Australia do MAFless tunes and seem to rave that you can make gobs of extra power without the MAF (I think these are mainly NA cars). They obviously have to spend a lot of time on the dyno to get the car to run good without it, but it proves that the MAF is not the only way to make the car run good.
You can still tune the car after the MAF maxes out and Rob explained how this was done (modifying PE vs RPM and VE tables). It takes lots of trial and error (as ROB mentioned 100+ dyno pulls) and you pretty much have to tune for max boost and leave some HP on the table when not hitting max boost (as ChrisB mentioned). Superchargers are much easier since RPM and boost are directly related.
Yes, the tune will not be perfect and things will change with air density… but it is basically “good enough for government work”. You leave HP on the table and a MAF that could meter more air would be more adaptive and easier to tune.
BTW, some of the ls1 guys in Australia do MAFless tunes and seem to rave that you can make gobs of extra power without the MAF (I think these are mainly NA cars). They obviously have to spend a lot of time on the dyno to get the car to run good without it, but it proves that the MAF is not the only way to make the car run good.
02-06-2004, 10:05 AM
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[QUOTE=Rob Raymer]I agree, but I didn't draw first blood. As I said, I thought we were friends. Amazing how competition can change all that.QUOTE]
Matt has managed to loose a few freinds lately. I think it's an EGO or guilt by association thing. Who knows.
I posted this in the admin section. Why not have a grudge match at the North vs. South or the Friday night Street Car Chaos. If you guys want to put up some money for this race then have the winner donate the loosers money to a charity of the winners choice. We can even have some side bets to help raise more money for that charity. This way it stays competitive but constructive instead of spiteful.
Just a thought.
Tom
Matt has managed to loose a few freinds lately. I think it's an EGO or guilt by association thing. Who knows.
I posted this in the admin section. Why not have a grudge match at the North vs. South or the Friday night Street Car Chaos. If you guys want to put up some money for this race then have the winner donate the loosers money to a charity of the winners choice. We can even have some side bets to help raise more money for that charity. This way it stays competitive but constructive instead of spiteful.
Just a thought.
Tom
02-06-2004, 10:36 AM
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Originally Posted by MIGHTYMOUSE
oh and for you rice etr fans, ppslap wont him. we dont live anywhere close to dsw.
Anyway, I don't think anyone here puts any value in anything RICE ETR says. This group of people is much too intelligent for that.
And, in my opinion, nobody gives a **** what he has to say either. FWIW, I didn't see anyone say that they thought the post was made by RICE ETR.
Originally Posted by FSTR-THANU
Why not have a grudge match at the North vs. South or the Friday night Street Car Chaos. If you guys want to put up some money for this race then have the winner donate the loosers money to a charity of the winners choice. We can even have some side bets to help raise more money for that charity. This way it stays competitive but constructive instead of spiteful.
Just a thought.
Tom
Let's just make sure the rules are clear early on. I want to have time to prepare my car.
Wow...side bets for charity! That's a new one....
02-07-2004, 12:17 AM
#75
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I max'd out reading this thread by the middle of the 3rd page.
I think the point Y2K was trying to make was this:
'and my issue with the dynojet is not the numbers, it's the well known fact that they don't load out cars enough to give accurate airfuel readings. You ran borderline on the rolls, that's deadly on the street.'
Your tune might have been ok with no load on the dynojet, but this tune, or advising this tune for a turbo setup like this on the street sounds dangerous.
Perhaps take your exact setup to a Mustang shop and see how the A/F holds up under load. Irregardless of blowing up a stock engine or not, you might as well get the tune right under load. Or at least confirm the tune is ok when under load.
I think the point Y2K was trying to make was this:
'and my issue with the dynojet is not the numbers, it's the well known fact that they don't load out cars enough to give accurate airfuel readings. You ran borderline on the rolls, that's deadly on the street.'
Your tune might have been ok with no load on the dynojet, but this tune, or advising this tune for a turbo setup like this on the street sounds dangerous.
Perhaps take your exact setup to a Mustang shop and see how the A/F holds up under load. Irregardless of blowing up a stock engine or not, you might as well get the tune right under load. Or at least confirm the tune is ok when under load.
02-07-2004, 09:32 AM
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Guess you should have kept reading....I NEVER "advised" this tune. Quite the contrary. Also, it has been tested under a REAL load...the street. With a Wideband. It was tuned with that in mind on the Dynojet.
I have no desire to travel 300 miles to a Mustang Dyno, when I think I've already proven what can be done with a Turbo and an LS1.
Hope you understand.
I have no desire to travel 300 miles to a Mustang Dyno, when I think I've already proven what can be done with a Turbo and an LS1.
Hope you understand.
02-07-2004, 12:55 PM
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To the casual reader(such as myself) it does seem like Rob Raymer has to take a bunch of **** on this board. I know nothing about him or his personality, but I do know he shouldn't have moderators treating him like this.
He is a paying sponsor is he not? I can't imagine flipping off one of my customers!
Ryan
He is a paying sponsor is he not? I can't imagine flipping off one of my customers!
Ryan
02-07-2004, 01:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Juggernaut
To the casual reader(such as myself) it does seem like Rob Raymer has to take a bunch of **** on this board. I know nothing about him or his personality, but I do know he shouldn't have moderators treating him like this.
He is a paying sponsor is he not? I can't imagine flipping off one of my customers!
Ryan
He is a paying sponsor is he not? I can't imagine flipping off one of my customers!
Ryan
02-07-2004, 02:11 PM
#80
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Also as a casual observer. RR you seem very confrontational if you even sense a hint of criticism. And I am very suprised at the way you have handled some of your customers on this board.