dilsnick

the dynojet widebands have a red light as well as an alarm. the only downside to this is that when you let off the gas you normally will get a lean reading and it will set the alarm off. i didnt play with mine enough to see if you could link the alarm to wot or whatever. also the dynojet will log afr if you dont have the ability to do that through another system on your vehicle.

qqwqeqwrqwqtq

It can (and should be configured) so the alarm can only be triggered after a certain TPS threshold. (it can also be set up to only be triggered after a set RPM as well)

Sure it's not going to add fuel but a warning light is better than nothing at all.

Even if you had BS3 and a lot of overhead on the fuel injectors....if the fuel pump fails during a run and the BS3 goes to max positive correction it could still run dead lean and hurt the engine. Nothing is fool proof so monitoring the air/fuel ratio is a good thing to do no matter what you are using for engine management.

My6speedZ

iTrader: (18)

If the warning light on that gauge is reading off the wideband wouldn't it take a second for the wideband to see the lean condition at which point the motor as already been lean to long anyways?

Seems like having the wideband linked to PCM would be the most effective way to protect against these conditions no?

I'm not trying to be a smartass I'm being sincerer trying to understand what being said in this thread.

On the stock PCM the wideband cannot be linked so that's not possible thus the problem?

stevieturbo

Actually no.

So you need a device that will read TPS, MAP, RPM, and perhaps a few other parameters before an alarm condition can actually be met. Otherwise the alarm would be blasting during most of your driving.

As Mike suggests 12:1 AFR....90% of the time your engine will be leaner than this.

Zeitronix is one of the few that offers this feature...but again, YOU must provide it will all the data so it can achieve a sensible alarm.
This would also need to have built in delays, as during transients, gear changes etc AFR's could easily go below your threshold for a moment...do you want your timing to be getting retarded all the time ?

I still dont see why anyone would need a warning light, when all widebands already have a great big illuminated display telling you in the first place.
And a proper functional alarm isnt as easy to achieve as you think, even more so when you want it to automatically retard timing or perform other functions

This is why having a versatile ecu that can take care of all of these things isnt such bad value at all. It'll react far faster than a human being ever will, and can perform so many more tasks in order to protect the engine, without having to resort to wiring in a huge array of other bits.

stevieturbo

Widebands are reasonably quick, but in essence you are correct. Being able to see how the AFR's are changing in real time is more important than a simple threshold.
An alarm is the crudest of crude and could be triggered very often without a complex setup. And often that setup will also introduce time delays....which will make it even more useless.

The factory PCM does do a very good job. But when it comes to additional safety features or just general features it's limitations are very apparent

mike13

iTrader: (27)

stevieturbo with your logic a shift light wouldn't work either. Why would pro stock cars need a shift light? They have a giant tac sitting right in front of them.

Also the the alarm wouldn't be active most of the time, only when you plan on doing wot and want to verify your not going lean. It's not replacing datalogging or any other function.

I think there's a reading comprehension issue, as clearly posted earlier it would only be used for wot throttle testing.

mike13

iTrader: (27)

your making a assumption on what "lean" is, the alarm can be set to read a couple of tenths leaner then what your tuning for so you wouldn't be lean enough to hurt the motor. Yes having wot controlled by the pcm would be best. However even if it was controlled by the pcm, all it would take is the wrong values entered into a field and you could find yourself with the same problem.

stevieturbo

Absolutely no comparison with a shift light. A shift light operates via a single parameter only. There is no ambiguity as to when it should illuminate. It's a simple off/on deal at a single reference point.
As to the importance of a shift light...really can't say Ive ever needed one so dont see it as that important personally.

There are two reasons why this isnt a readily available piece.

1, it isnt that necessary.
2, it isnt as easy to implement as a proper functional warning as you would like to think it is.

You have so far given only 2 parameters. Throttle, and AFR. During a gearchange it is possible for your foot to be on the throttle, and AFR's display as lean...is this a warning situation ? No
Hitting the rev limiter is another one. Again, not a warning worth shouting about.
A small harmless missfire would be another. And all of these assume for the entire warning window your foot is nailed to the floor at WOT as you requested.

In short, to have an effective warning you'd want at least Throttle, RPM, Boost, and AFR with built in delays so as not to get any false activations.

There is no reading or comprehension problems. Just an understanding of what is involved to actually create a functional warning that isnt always flagging innocent happenings.

My6speedZ

iTrader: (18)

Ok I understand thank you

qqwqeqwrqwqtq

http://www.widebandcommander.com/Tut...ng%20Light.htm

If you have a good tune and you set this up correctly you aren't going to get many false warnings.

Most gauges are placed at a point within the vehicle that makes you focus off of the road and onto the gauge. This is hard to do at some speeds/conditions but a warning light is instantly noticeable even if you are concentrating on the road/track.

I'm not saying it's necessary but certainly not a bad idea.

mike13

iTrader: (27)

OK stevieturbo, you don't think it's needed. I respect your opinion. This thread is looking for input on widebands with a warning system not opinions on if one's needed. I'm not going to change your mind and your not going to change mine.

Fbodyjunkie06

iTrader: (10)

Dyno Tune (nitrous company) makes an AFR gauge that has a lean cut off mode with an alarm that lights up when it is cutting boost/nitrous. I'm guessing in a boosted app you'd set it up to kill the TPS signal and a Nitrous set-up would be to kill the relay that powers the solenoids.

http://www.dynotunenitrous.com/store...p?idproduct=67

mike13

iTrader: (27)

thanks

stevieturbo

I'm not trying to change your mind. I'm trying to educate you on what is required to actually make one work.


If people place their display somewhere they cannot see it...there is little point in having it. That's their decision. Given the important information it can show, I'd rather have mine visible.
A Warning light is more noticeable....but then, how many warning lights do you need ? Water temperature ? Detonation ? Fuel Pressure ? Oil pressure ? Oil temperature ? Shift light ?

If you're going down the road of fitting warning lights for all sorts of stuff, may as well just fit a proper ecu into the car so warning lights are not required and the ecu can take care of engine safety.
It'll do it better and faster than any human will, and can monitor a lot more inputs.

qqwqeqwrqwqtq

Well unless your gauges are mounted on the front nose of your car I don't see how you could watch them during a run. Personally I can only focus on one thing at a time so that would either be looking down or over at a gauge or looking up and focusing on where I'm going.

And sure, have a yellow shift light and one other red light hooked up to as many warning outputs as you want. See red, shut it down. Easier than trying to scan water temp, oil temp, oil pressure, fuel pressure, wideband/etc/etc/etc while trying to wheel 1000hp. Something that's 400hp, sure, I'll stare at gauges all day, but if I have a car that can get sideways shifting into 3rd than no I'm not watching the gauges. I only know the a/f ratio once I check the data log of that pass.

If there are no problems with the car you will not see a light, and as I've mentioned an ecu with WOT closed loop capability will not save you if your fuel pump dies. (or oil pump or water pump for that matter).

northcorner

iTrader: (3)

Stevie, please go back to screwing your sister as mentioned earlier in this thread, I'm sure you have her convinced that you know what the hell you're talking about. You keep assuming that we're worried about afr's while casually driving to the grocery store, but Mike plainly said he was concerned about an alarm of sorts at wide open throttle ( as in a drag race). You just don't get it. Maybe it's the green beer over there or something, but please keep the useless banter between you and your sister from now on.

stevieturbo

It's easy to see why you dont understand what is being discussed when you've an intellect that low with no comprehension of how to configure an alarm.
If you ever figure it out, maybe you'll become rich selling it.. LOL

And in your ignorance, you keep blabbing on about WOT.

So is there no risk if you were at 99% throttle ? 90% ? 80% ? or even 50% If the alarm is only at 100% and for some reason your foot isnt planted right down...the alarm suddenly becomes useless again.

stevieturbo

There are ecu's out there that can though. They can monitor pressure variations between boost/fuel pressure and shut down if it is beyond a certain threshold. You can add oil pressure and pretty much any amount of sensor inputs you want and cause a shutdown based on any of them, or any combination of them going beyond certain thresholds.

Do I feel it is necessary ? In most cases no. But WOT closed loop is only one line of defence which also has it's limitations.
But a good aftermarket ecu really does open up many many options for adding protection if you wanted it.

MUSTANGBRKR02

iTrader: (91)

Really no need to attack him personally. He has alot of good info and knowledge.

northcorner

iTrader: (3)

^^This is what I read. What does it have to do with 50%, 80% or 90% throttle? Maybe I'm the odd one here. I've never ran a pass at anything less than 100% throttle, unless I get all the way out of it and idle across the line. Is everyone else feathering the throttle while making a pass? I can see a variance in afr's while accelerating or decelerating, but I could have sworn that Mike asked about wide open throttle, nothing else.

A lean condition causing detonation is far less likely and destructive when the engine is not loaded like at WOT.