eb02z06

iTrader: (18)

Alot of the Vette guys rely on bad information altogether.

moehorsepower

iTrader: (3)

As said, Meth is another safety factor for making more horsepower as is an inter cooler as is running race gas. As said, better to run more boost than timing. But timing is dependent on how the motor is built, even on a N/A, Deck Height, combustion chamber efficiency of the heads, tolerances of the motor, This all has affect on timing too. Never go by what some one else is running, always start at a very safe tune, Tune to what the motor likes / wants and leave it. Just because some one else has a similar set up and is running say 23* and yours likes 20* don't try to push it...

Sarg

iTrader: (6)

Good discussion. The above advice is right on. I have seen quite a few cars with similar set ups that like different amounts of timing. Each car is just a little different.

LS1x2

iTrader: (11)

As mentioned, you have to take into consideration the compression as another variable. It's not worth guessing imo. Spend a little time on the dyno with a higher HP car. It will love the timing and pick up big power with every 1-2* where safe. That is my plan. 8.8:1, 20psi, dual m15 meth nozzles on alkycontrol pump(A LOT). I've got 14* in it while I get things dialed in roughly on the street. I'll hit the dyno once the bugs are worked out. I won't be surprised to end up at 17-18* with this compression.

Lower rwhp cars that get easy traction on the street you can tell if the timing is a good move b/c every 2* feels like a 75 shot of nitrous...lol

The Alchemist

iTrader: (19)

Can you ever run too little timing at wot? What happens if you drop down to like 6, 8 or 10 degrees of timing. I mean, what exactly is 'timing' refering to? It's the degrees before top dead center that the pcm sends a signal to the coil to initiate a spark event, right?

I'm guessing that there is a way to calculate exactly how long it takes for the signal to be processed by the crank position sensor, signal to the pcm, pcm sends signal to coil, coil fires, current goes to spark plug, ignition happens. I'm sure it's in the millisecond range. But, once you start talking about 1000s of rpms, every degree of crank rotation is going to be measured in milliseconds as well.

I would think that there would be someone with a chart showing how many milliseconds a degree of crank rotation is at each rpm (100s of rpms if you wanted to simplify it).

Consider that at like 7000 rpm, you only have 5-6 milliseconds of time to fire an injector while the valve is open, I would think that at a certain point, having too little timing would mean that you're not getting spark to the chamber before it hits top dead center.

Thoughts?

dville_gt

iTrader: (5)

My first boosted passes were at 5.5* of advance because I didn't change the IAT vs. Timing table and it was yanking out a ton of timing. Didn't hurt anything but my et/mph. I have heard though that too little timing can be hard on the engine especially too little timing with too much fuel, supposedly a ring land killer.

LS1x2

iTrader: (11)

Too little timing means hot, unburnt fuel going out the exhaust valve. How bad that is for the car depends on the parts. On a procharged car it would take lots of racing like that to do any damage imo.

There is no practical point in over-thinking it. How much timing these engines take for a given scenario has already been proven and varies with different cars. Best to start on the low end and see how it reacts to more. It takes less timing at peak torque.

Fbodyjunkie06

iTrader: (10)

You said two things there that speak of your success.

Brian Tooley, and anti-detonation work to the chamber.

I think if you keep the timing where it is and don't do anything different the -7 will keep you trouble free although I don't think a -8 would hurt you might see some colder temp troubles. Never know till you try.

Fbodyjunkie06

iTrader: (10)

Boy lot's of questions and information given I missed.

I guess when I stir the pot I need to check back sooner.

Ok guy that asked 15* at 12#'s, it all depends on your AFR and CR.

The Grand National guy from a page back, you have iron heads they will want more timing. From what I have read on Alkycontrol's site(deals with GN's a lot) they will run lower than normal AFR with A LOT of meth and it seems to work for them.

This leads up to the next guy's question of lower AFR's with meth because of diff. burn rates. Meth's SG(specific gravity) is much higher(viscous) than gasoline.

I have not done a lot of research on this for methanol. I know with different SG's and leaded race gas that AFR and timing plays a big part in how it is burned and power is made. I really can't fully answer that question for you at this time.

Alchemist I think it's time I introduce you to the dark side. Read this thread and you will learn all of your questions at once. Do not respond till entire thread is read and comprehended....LOL

Here ya go...take the blue pill and down the rabbit hole to neverland you go...http://www.yellowbullet.com/forum/sh...t=rich+tune+up

LS1x2

iTrader: (11)

On the AFR issue, most people are using a wideband calibrated for gasoline with stoich being 14.7:1. With that as the reference point you tune around that reading just like you would with 100% gasoline while using meth injection. Makes things really simple actually.

Fbodyjunkie06

iTrader: (10)

LOL I know that.

What I mean is methanol is totally different than gasoline.

It likes different lamba than gasoline lamda(AFR) to make peak power.

Some people in the GN community swear by spraying TONS of methanol and running the AFR at 10.1:1-10.5:1 with lot's of timing like true 100% methanol combo's do.

E85 is close to the same way in what it likes as far as being really fat and overtimed compared to gasoline.

All that said we are still using gasoline as the primary fuel enrichment and I don't think what "works" for methanol really works for meth injection on a gas application.

Now if your spraying so much methanol that 30% of your fueling is coming from the methanol then I can see how fattening it up and adding timing might work.

That isn't the case with meth injection as most are using it. So that being said and like eb02Z06 said the main benefit comes from IAT cooling and added octane.

I know my way around tuning a gas application and a AFR gauge lol, I'm not quite as dumb as I look/sound.

Fbodyjunkie06

iTrader: (10)

Boy isn't this the truth.

I could make a killing of those idiots selling them **** they don't need like COW does.

I don't include you in that group of idiots though LOL!

LS1x2

iTrader: (11)

I didn't mean to insinuate anything. Good discussion here.

The Alchemist

iTrader: (19)

Thanks for the link FbodyJunkie. I'm always up for reading technical information and learning more. Part of my dna of who I am is trial and error and experimenting, hence why I became a scientist. I get paid to do it, but I want to avoid the costs of blowing up **** on my own car.

So my plan is to lean the car out to high 11s, pull timing back to 10s, and then get it on a dyno and see how it looks. Add some timing and see how it reacts.

I'm not trying to get a 'number' or run a time. I actually was under the wrong assumption that being too rich was safer than being not rich enough. Live and learn.

Fbodyjunkie06

iTrader: (10)

Damn man I feel like a dousche now, I didn't know you had a vette either!!!

I need to read people's signatures more often! LOL

If it makes you feel any better I don't include you in that group either! LOL!

Sorry, I hate the internet sometimes it really has no emotion, and I dunno about y'all, but this guy right here is all full of emotion.

Fbodyjunkie06

iTrader: (10)

No problem bro. I know your a chemist and that you are pretty smart and can think for yourself when presented with the right information.

Not only a chemist, but a former chemist for sunoco can understand that fuel=heat and no fuel past stoich=less heat!

I'm sure you also know that gas burns best right under 11 afr (per the yb thread) but doesn't make peak power there, and the hottest burn occurs right before stoich.

Read the plugs, read the plugs, read the plugs! Send me some pictures and post the pics of the plugs up once you do get it on the dyno to tune.

Since you are not shooting for a number or a time it will be really easy to dial in your motor and not try to push the ragged edge with anything or by setting a goal that must be met.

If your happy with 14psi of boost then leave it there, tune for 11.7-11.9 afr and if you on nothing but pump then start with 10* honestly I wouldn't go more than 12* with that afr and 93, but the plug will tell you what you can and can't do. Put a -7 non projected tip plug in there to start, if the strap of the plug is showing too much heat, you can always drop back to a -8.

If you add the methanol injection and don't go up on boost, then adding 2* isn't going to kill the motor. Just read the plugs after adding the timing!!!

Plugs are 1.50-2 bucks a pop. Your forged bottom end is 2k just for parts.

The Alchemist

iTrader: (19)

Can you shoot me a PM with the plugs your talking about. I had NGK TR6's in as that was the common concensus of what to run.

driven87

iTrader: (1)

my confusion comes from seeing guys flying on meth with the a/f's in the low 10's. even a known member like razor i have read runs his mustang in the 10.5 a/f range on meth and has been 9.0's.

dville_gt

iTrader: (5)

ngk br7ef

eb02z06

iTrader: (18)

****, the COW booster was gonna be ny first mod when I pick up a C6!