I just don't like running that rich. Period.

I'd be interested to see what his rwhp numbers are and what the duty cycle of his fuel injectors are.

If I knew those two things I could get an idea of how much meth he is spraying during a pass.

Like I said if you are spraying A LOT and I mean A LOT like more than 25-30% of your fueling, then lowering the AFR down into that range may be beneficial, as pure 100% methanol likes to be run fat(rich) and with a lot of timing in it.

It ALL depends on the combo, and you MUST read your plugs when getting it dialed in.

 

Alright so i started reading that yb thread. super interesting. i have no experience in the tuning world so its fun to try and wrap my head around some basics.

If you arent in a max power effort and you tune on the conservative side are there any serious side effects besides the fact that you could be making more power? Say the motor makes peak power at 17* but you only want to run 13*, (assuming 12.8:1 AFR for both cases) now you pull the plugs and they are going to tell you the car is undertimed, is there anything you should worry about? Per the yb thread im going to say no, but i just want to clarify.

 

I'm going to forward Julio ( Razor ) from Alky Control this link and hopefully he'll come on and reply to some of these questions.

I've been using and selling his kits for the last 6 years-it's been critical in getting me to where I am.

 

Pot stirrer in da house

I'm a huge fan of higher boost whenever possible. Some applications you just have no where to go. Same with blower, turbo's, etc. Once you max out what you can do on boost.. then put the timing to it.

Now EGT is one thing that goes throughthe roof when you start running lower timing. A balance of moderate timing and boost is whats always has worked for me. I run 18 degree's timing. AFR in the mid 10's for a target, and watch MPH increase past the 1/8 mile mark. Typically things that create more power to your tune will show up as an increase on the pickup.

Couple of cases in point. I have a good friend that runs an 03 Cobra(ohh.. one of those) twin 62's, car weighs 3450. Driven to track it ran 8.70 at 162 on pump gas at 9.6:1 afr. The question was asked... Should I lean it out??? I replied bronze the car and leave it alone. If the car makes big power and you have moderate timing, moderate boost, nice fat tuneup... it will live forever.

My car I target 10.5:1 AFR. It ran a month ago 9.04 at 153 at 21 PSI 18 degree's timing 1.50 60 foot. Motor is 348 CI. I race in a class called True Street.

Dont get me wrong, I love the LS motors. I went with the Ford platform as it wasnt getting done on pump gas. It was a 50/50 mix, washer fluid junk, etc... The LS platform with guys like Arun writing the books.. nothing for me to add there.

There is power to be had a few different ways. Timing, AFR, and Boost. I dont like low timing, really high timing, or lean AFR's. But thats what has worked for me. My motor is now 4 years old and has ~400 passes.. getting old and tired. This months(April 2012) MMFF magazine I took 1st place on a Dyno challange the Mag was doing. Car made 901 RWHP through a glide on pump gas at 25 PSI boost. 9.6:1 afr. It was a drive on the rollers and make a number thing. Funny it runs dead on zero correction at 10.5:1 at the track.

Hope this helps. Yes straight methanol. No water.

 

All words of wisdon and wealth of knowledge here.

Over 5 years on my 402-pump gas and Alky Control Meth.

Here is a friend of mines car I helped tune, forged motor, YSi, RPM 4L65E, 10.5 AFR-3600lbs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQvle...9&feature=plcp

 

So by your experiences Julio, me running 14psi of boost on a stock shortblock ls1 with ~10.5:1 compression, 13 degrees of timing, and 10.4-10.8:1 afr, what would you beleive is the reason I took out a ringland on a stock piston, stock rings?

 

Hey bro on your setup-you were not using meth correct?

Does your fuel setup run a return line?

Sorry for the redundent question's I just don't get enought time read all the threads.

 

Hey Julio, you were who I was referring to in my turbo buick comment about lots of methanol and richer afr's.

The EGT's go through the roof when you run lower timing if there is an abundance of fuel present in the cylinder, because there is not enough spark to light off the combustion mainly because it is over saturated with fuel. If you lean that mixture out while still reading the plug and the heat on the strap then you will be able to light it off and make power. We know that an engine want's the least amount possible to still make peak power, that doesn't mean 8 degrees of timing, but it means whatever makes the timing mark on the strap right before the bend.

I'd like to ask you exactly how much methanol are you spraying? In a % of your total fueling at WOT based of your injector duty cycle?

I can totally agree with a car running like a raped ape and leaving it alone. I just have a hard time jiving with an AFR in the 9.6 range on gasoline.

When you talk about the ls not getting it done on pump gas and the ford is, did you do any work to the chamber's on either sets of the heads on these motors? I also can't see trying to run that much boost or timing on pump gas with meth injection.

I don't doubt that your car or the cobra you spoke of make big power and run great at the track, we just all have our own ways of getting from A to B while we are there right?

That said I wouldn't run a boosted motor any leaner than 12.1-12.3. I've seen one or two datalog's on one of the fastest turbo X275 car around my way once or twice and what I saw opened my eyes.

 

Hey bro-what were the IAT temps of those cars?

 

Correct, no meoh was on the car. Again, there's another point of confusion. 100% meoh vs. 50/50 meoh/water.

I'm on the stock fuel lines up to a set of high flow rails with dual walbros in the tank from Lonnie's.

 

lol, about 45 degrees to 60 at the end of the run.

 

SD tune? What did the PE/BE table look like?

 

DAMN!!!!!

My take-with IAT temps like that-the AFR makes sense.

Love to discuss more-but I think were going to confuse alot of folk!

 

Two scenarios
One.. You detonated the motor due to running not enough octane
Two.. **** happens.. It's racing.

My question is what fuel was being used? How much methanol was being sprayed?
Your run was datalogged when it let go?

 

This is a common tuning method..
Nothing new.

 

Agreed-but we can't apply this method to the pump gas setups-I've seen it fail to often.

 

It is actual not so far off as you may think.

It doesn't change the fact that fuel creates heat. Too much fuel like what happened in alchemists case caused fuel to get into the ringlands before it ingnited then from the heat from the initial combustion it lit that fuel off weakening them and also from the fuel that didn't get burnt.

I dunno man but the AFR range you guys are talking about seems to me is that your covering up an overtimed issue.

I know plenty guys with non intercooled set-ups running afr in the high 11's with IAT temps I won't even mention that reduce the timing enough, with the proper heat range plug and it makes more peak power, torque and runs better and doesn't act like a slug coming up on the trans brake or spool limiter because it is so rich.

The reason you probably saw cars get hurt is because they were overtimed and/or too hot of a plug.

 

So no answer to my question?

**** happens it's racing?

I dunno but I would like to know what happened when my motor blows up. And his was run exactly like your telling these people too.

He wasn't racing his motor when it blew up. It blew at 4500rpm in 4th gear, right where maximum load occurs in the 10.3-10.6 fuel range In the Alchemist case as per The Alchemist thread he made after it blew up.

 

Julio, while we are on this topic.....and Fbodyjunkie has already helped me out a ton. You can see what I have in my signature. Right now on E85 and NO INTERCOOLER I am running 14 degrees of timing at full boost (15lbs) and a NGK 7. My AFR at WOT is 10.5 to 11.2 range. I just had a basic tune done two weeks ago. In that amount of time I just went over a 1000 street miles. I was going to continue to tune the "cruising" speeds but leave the WOT and idle part of the tune alone. I have a tuner that thinks we can bump up the timing a little with my meth/water kit we are going to add but haven't yet. I just purchased 18 jugs of Walmart Speartech -20 blue windshield washer fluid to run. I only have a 2 bar map and my idea was just to leave it alone. No track times yet but it runs awesome on the street and I can rape it in all three gears bouncing off the rev limiter of 6400. So far hasn't missed a beat. The car runs around 155 degrees on the highway and 180 in town and that is without fans. My fans are on a toggle switch and don't even have to kick them on right now. I was going to strictly use the water/meth injection as a safety precaution for when the warm weather gets here. I figure if I leave the timing, boost and afr's alone that if it runs right now and haven't blown it up then with the meth injection and same tune it would act strictly to cool intake temps and suppress detonation. I figured it may live for a while on the stock bottom end if I do this. Again, a 1000 miles in the first two weeks and all looks good. Any suggestions or am I in the ball park with what you mentioned? Not sure what is considered "moderate" timing, boost, and AFR? Figured I have to be close.

Thanks for any input. This tune was done the way Fbodyjunky had me go about it. We started with NGK 9's and 9 degrees of timing and worked our way up. I just stopped at 14 because he recommended a 12-14 window was conservative. So far it has worked.

 

E85 is totally different than gas.

It responds almost exactly the same way methanol does. It likes to be run fat with some timing in it, but since you had no I/C I said to stay in that 12-14 range like you have done.

Gas on the other hand is a lot different.