Wicked69

That was what I figured. You haven't steered me wrong yet. I figured my meth/water using the windshield washer fluid at -20 would be used strictly for the purposes of keeping intake temps down when in boost.

Thanks again.

Fbodyjunkie06

iTrader: (10)

You will have to re-tune your fueling tables once you add the meth injection.

The methanol will act as a form of fueling itself and will make the AFR ratio richer if you leave the fueling tables where they were before it was added.

Just add it slowly on the dyno while watching the power gains. I'd be willing to bet once you get the afr ratio back where it was, your IAT's drop a good bit and you see a good gain in however big that drop is.

It sucks though that you only have a 2 bar map, as what I would do is once the methanol injection is added, add boost to lean the afr back to where it was. That in itself along with the IAT drop will add a really good bit of power.

Fbodyjunkie06

iTrader: (10)

Also after your small stockpile of windshield washer fluid runs out find a racing store in your area that sells race gas and get 5 gallons of VP M1 methanol. It is clear and has no lubicrant added.

Use that instead of the washer fluid.

When you change over the AFR will richen even more since the % of methanol is higher.

This will allow you to add boost and some timing.

I'm not a fan of adding timing on washer fluid as there is no sure way of knowing the % of methanol so you don't know if your playing with fire or not. With M1 you know what your getting and that is close to 113-114 octane race gas.

Wicked69

Good to know.

eb02z06

iTrader: (18)

I've tried my car leaner-like in the 11.8 range and it will spit a gasket. You can see peppering on the plugs. I've found 10.8-11.1 the sweet spot for me and other cars similar to mine.

2 other cars, pump gas and meth 14 degrees timing with 15 psi, fugged up some pistons and rings when they decided to run them on fumes at the track and the AFR climbed to 12.1.

IAT's were good but going from 11.1 to 12.1 was enough to make them unhappy.

The Renegade cars that I've seen run the AFR on the rich side as well. Maybe this is a blower phenomena?

Fbodyjunkie06

iTrader: (10)

Might be?

If your Renegade class is anything like our's then they run on methanol? The blower cars that is...? Or are they run on gas?

If there was peppering on the plugs at that afr I would of went to a step cooler than what was in there. Although once it is blown it is too late, and your cconclusion is drawn.

It sounds to me like you are using the fuel to cool the combustion event, because the timing is a little too far advanced, but that is just my conclusion I can draw from it.

Like I told Julio, we all have fast cars at the track, we just use different methods to get them from A to B.

No one uses what hasn't worked for them in the past.

If your car works where it works then leave it. I just have seen guys running them were they thought they were safe in a (rich) afr zone, and run fine, and then all the sudden melt **** down the next pass.

Julio

I shoot for approx 25% displacement of fuel. Meaning I pull out 25% of fuel and run methanol on top of that. I did a shakedown a few weeks ago doing some prelim testing as I made a lot of changes. At 16 PSI my car ran 9.3 at 145. Injector DC was 53% on 96's.

I was saying the other way around. The LS motors "ARE" getting it done. Tons of cars on the Corvetteforum and on this forum making some big numbers on pump gas. Not so with the Mustang crowd. One take could be that most of the tuning done on LS motors typically rides along with knock sensor activity. Meaning adjustments to AFR and Timing are knock related. This is why I moved to that platform. Just some are stuck in old ways of doing things.

10 years ago you would never hear of this type of tuning, or timing used. It takes time to extract power from a combination. And the majority of my tuning is done at a track. I dont trust dyno's except for preliminary tuneups. The time slip is my truth. And do whatever it takes to get the numbers on the slip to go in a positive direction. The money I dont spend on C16 pays for new tires, new safety equipment, new wheels, more trips to the track. I love racing and try and get as much done as inexpensively as possible. If I ran C16 I could afford to go every few months. If you have a Porsche and the $$$ go for it. I would never tell anyone not to use C16. Its just the cars rips on pump gas. All I need to do is keep an eye on the system and i'm good to go.

The more methanol shot in... the lower the target to keep things happy. I learned this from Nolan in Canada a few years ago. They built a 292 CI V6 Chevy motor. Bowtie block, brodix, heads, etc.. I made 1100 on pump gas 91 at 10.0:1 AFR. PT88 turbo. Motor was going to France where 91 is all they can get. Their website is getting redeveloped or I would post the link to the video.

While I have read tons on tuning while looking/reading at the straps and porcelin.. I never pull plugs. I just changed plugs yesterday, they have been on the motor since April last year. I use Autolite 3923's. Probably like a TR6. Its a street car.. running cold plugs leads to fouling them out sooner than latter. And I really hate working on it more than I have too. Some guys love pulling the motor to change the oil. Thats not me. For an 8 sec, 9 sec car... not a big deal. This is not a 2000 HP setup running a specific class we're trying to get the very most from.

See if I can get Tim's log from the mid 8 sec run and post it up. He uses a FAST XFI. Just like what I use.

Julio

Contact the MFG of the system you have before going to straight methanol and see if it is compatible. Plastic chinese hose and cheap push in fittings are not where you want to be with a flammable liquid. As you can torch down your car.

The big problem with water is temperature. It takes a lot more temp to get it to work. Example.. methanol has a flash temp of 70 DF(degree's). Meaning if you mist it out of a nozzle and there is 70 degree's going over it.. it disappears into the air. Like shooting brake cleaner on a hot rotor.. poof its gone. Water has a flash of 180DF. Boils at 212. So you shoot water out of the nozzle.. there isnt enough temp to get it to flash.. it goes to the rear cylinders and the fronts starve. You get distribution issues and whalla.. Mr Knock shows itself. At this point the tuner thinks the motor needs "More Meth" so they crank in higher volumes of this water laden mixture.. problem only gets worse.

Evry PSI is 11DF as a rule of thumb. 10 PSI boost is 110 plus ambient coming out of the blower/turbo/SC. The IC tames that temp down.. If its 40 degree's outside.. IC is cold.. you may only see 60-80 degree's for IAT. See where this is going.. hence why I like using straight methanol.

If its hot outside, motor is nice and hot, then mix can work. What percentage.. good question.. you'll need to play with that figure.. when climate changes, etc.. back at retuning. Playing chemist with your mixes.

Straight meth you use it year round.. stays very stable in performance. But the system has to be built around it.

HTH

The Alchemist

iTrader: (19)

It was on the highway when it happened, rolling through 4th gear from like 3500-5000 rpm. Yes, in the peak torque range. No methanol and it was running 93 octane pump gas. I'm certainly not the first person to have #7 let go on these motors, so I wasn't the least bit surprised.

Yes, SD tuned. I'll have to look at the PE table and get back to you. I beleive I was calling for 11.2-11.4 fueling, but my VE table still wasn't 100% correct, so I was actually seeing 10.4-10.6 in the boost region.

Julio

Yeah but when you play with pump gas and no adders like meth... you certainly dont help the situation.

So you detonated it one too many times and kaboom happened. Things like this happen.. but sooner than latter when octane is involved.

Understand the tank you get your 93 from.. who knows if the day before was filled with 89 or 91? Becuase the tune was done on a dyno and your commanded AFR was in the 11's... doesnt mean on the road it was the same.

I datalog every run I make. If something goes wrong.. I have the entire incident recorded. Like a black box on an airplane. I need to know what caused the problem. Had there been a log of AFR and knock... you would have had your answer.

Good luck on the new build,

Julio

I wanted to add one misconception.. just becuase the IAT is low and timing is low doesnt mean you cant detonate a motor. A lot think that just because they run a large IC they can get away with higher boost.. not always the case.

Example.. IAT are 100df, timing is 11 degree's.. doesnt mean you can run 30 PSI on straight pump gas.

LS1x2

iTrader: (11)

Since we have some good data here I will offer some more. Make what you want of it. Real results though. I ran my stock ls6 shortblock with stock heads and a maxed out t-trim for over 2 years with easily over 1k pulls on it. It never gave up. I pulled it out when I could find some smoking out the oil cap, but it was minor, and power was still there. Dyno graph.



I was spraying a lot of meth. AlkyControl 250psi pump with an m10 and m15 nozzle set to 8 on the controller.

Here is the timing seen.



Here are the plugs. Last night was the first time I even checked them for anything more than damage/spots. Note the timing mark. 10.5:1 comp I guess was not liking some of that timing, but it wasn't enough to detonate. AFR was rich though. 10.5-11.2:1 through the curve.



Now onto my new setup. 347 8.8:1 with twin 62/65 precision turbos. 20psi. Now both meth nozzles are m15. I'm still working out the bugs on this and haven't finished street tuning. AFR is still 10.5-11.0 on here, but the next step is to lean it out. I started with 10*, then 12, then 14, and now 15.



Take it for what it's worth. It should add a point of reference for some of the discussion I would think.

eb02z06

iTrader: (18)

What's up buddy-didn't realize it was you here!

The Alchemist

iTrader: (19)

I noticed you went from a projected tip plug to a non-projected tip plug... what's the benefit in doing so?

Also, to Julio, I realize that I probably got detonation and just pushed the setup too far. Could it have been avoided with methanol, probably, but I'm sure at some point in time, 14psi on a 10.5:1 compression stock shortblock is asking for trouble.

My concern is that it was something in the tune because I am going to run a forged piston (-3cc), forged rod, stock crank setup with methanol/water injection and keep the same boost level. The question is do I need to change up my tune. I know I need to compensate for the meoh/water injection, but not sure how much.

driven87

iTrader: (1)

ill throw some more into this debate. are you guys opposed to throwing a bunch of timing down low right out of the gate and then scaling it back or do some of you guys have a set timing for the whole map like i have seen from some?

moehorsepower

iTrader: (3)

I have seen both, it's more of a tuners preference or ability to tune, Myself, I scale...

LS1x2

iTrader: (11)

Yup. Had this username before I ever thought of the other.

I switched to the non-projected tip plug after it being suggested to me. I never had an issue with the projected tips.

You don't get a chance to ramp in timing on most SD OS's on these cars unless you have it scaled a lot. You can see in my timing chart above that I did have a little more timing at low boost around 5psi. I don't see it being that beneficial on most setups. Even after a shift on my centrifugal setup I was running quite a bit of boost. It almost never saw 5-9psi unless it was part throttle.

Fbodyjunkie06

iTrader: (10)

He was datalogging when it blew.

He said he saw some knock.

He did the tune himself on the road, not on a dyno.

I don't do dyno's period. I do track. I have no use for a dyno unless I just built a new motor and want it broken in for the initial tune. Then go to the track and pull plugs.

Not pulling plugs is just asking for disaster as the guy below showed.

He thought he was safe and look where the timing mark was all the way at the bottom of the strap.

You cannot just say oh this afr and this timing and this boost will work. It doesn't work like that.

Fbodyjunkie06

iTrader: (10)

At least you learned to keep reading the plugs and how important that is.

A lot of people don't realize or think that when they go to lean it out you HAVE to remove timing or step to a colder range plug.

I don't think the projected tip hurt it, but the non projected can only help as with going to a cooler plug.

I have never heard of anyone fouling a -7 or -8 plug when the tune up isn't lazy and fat.

If the AFR is correct it won't foul the plugs unless your running a really cold -9 or -10 plug.

Fbodyjunkie06

iTrader: (10)

If you have a street car then there is really no use in throwing a bunch to it down low then scaling it back.

It's just going to spin and break the tires loose as the boost comes in.

More timing down low will bring the boost in stronger.

The only time I'd do it is if you had an automatic equipped car that you had a 2 and 3 step on that you are trying to spool on the footbrake on the spool limiter(3 step) and trying to get it up on the converter before grabbing the transbrake.

I am a fan of a good bit of timing down low and lean afr in the 12.5-13.0 area. Once I get the car up on boost(4-5psi) I level the ramp of the timing off and when the rpm reaches my two step limiter(say it's set at 4000rpm when I grab the transbrake) I dump the timing 8*-12* at that rpm so that it pushes the combustion out of the combustion chamber and into the manifolds and crossover where the heat from spooling up the turbo has made the manifolds/crossover so hot that the combustion lights off inside there closer to the turbine thus spooling the turbo harder. This method will really make it pop and bang on the 2 step causing the turbo to really spool hard.

Using that method I would see 7-8psi on the footbrake in pre-stage in about 3 seconds, bump the car into the 1st and 2nd staging lights, and once I was in the 2nd staging light(at 7-8psi) I would grab the transbrake which will activate the 2step limiter and dump the timing and the boost gauge would immediately go from 8psi to 12 within a second.

By that time it's time to let go of the trans brake button and hang on.

This is the best way I found to get my car up on boost.