Lets talk faster spool
05-24-2012, 12:36 PM
#21
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If you do pull a ton of timing and add fuel before building boost it will help spool time. I do it on the import cars and you can get a noticeable difference in spool time.
If you want to get fancy - I've never done it, but I don't see why it couldn't work. Sorta the inverse of a nitrous timing system.
Use a WOT switch (NOS sells them) to activate a relay in parallel to your IAT sensor circuit. Size the resistor to dump the IAT signal to the far left of your IAT table (the coldest). Adjust this far left column to pull an obscene amount of timing.
Next, use a Hobs switch wired in series with the IAT relay to disable the relay above a certain boost pressure (say 2 psi or so).
This system (if it works) would kick your timing down 10-20 degrees when you smash the gas and add a bunch of fuel (because the computer thinks it is cold) and as soon as the boost comes in and activates the Hobs switch, ramp your timing back to normal settings.
It also wouldn't be affected by around town driving because it would only activate when you push your foot to the floor and activate the WOT switch.
Just thinking outloud here....
If you want to get fancy - I've never done it, but I don't see why it couldn't work. Sorta the inverse of a nitrous timing system.
Use a WOT switch (NOS sells them) to activate a relay in parallel to your IAT sensor circuit. Size the resistor to dump the IAT signal to the far left of your IAT table (the coldest). Adjust this far left column to pull an obscene amount of timing.
Next, use a Hobs switch wired in series with the IAT relay to disable the relay above a certain boost pressure (say 2 psi or so).
This system (if it works) would kick your timing down 10-20 degrees when you smash the gas and add a bunch of fuel (because the computer thinks it is cold) and as soon as the boost comes in and activates the Hobs switch, ramp your timing back to normal settings.
It also wouldn't be affected by around town driving because it would only activate when you push your foot to the floor and activate the WOT switch.
Just thinking outloud here....
05-24-2012, 01:35 PM
#22
Watch the first part of this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rw2RPMJ9xVw
05-24-2012, 01:50 PM
#23
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Thats a bad *** vid. Roll racing isnt to big of a problem. I can brake boost at 8 psi in second. Main concern is making the car more enjoyable to drive and to get into boost as quick as I can to get around drivers doing the seattle surrender
05-24-2012, 04:38 PM
#24
**** dude you're in Seattle? I will be over there in a few weekends. The rich + retarded timing setup only is effective while on a 2 step. Being rich and having low timing while rolling makes the car sluggish and doesn't increase spool. You want to keep the car responsive as possible and get the rpms to increase rapidly to light that thing off. You want to stay around 12.5-12.8 afr and n/a timing before you start to tip into boost. If you want to setup a 2 step timing table (isn't needed really with m6) there is a way to setup this in your idle timing table and it disables as soon as you move.
Check for any leaks, hot side and cold side. Wrap the pipes and install a turbo blanket if you do not have this already done. If you want to run 11lbs of boost install a 6lb wastegate spring and use a manual boost controller to raise your boost. This alone will increase spool more than anything. As the wastegate cracks at about half the boost it's rated at. Be aware that rich conditions and lack of timing create a ton of heat and is very hard on your turbo.
Check for any leaks, hot side and cold side. Wrap the pipes and install a turbo blanket if you do not have this already done. If you want to run 11lbs of boost install a 6lb wastegate spring and use a manual boost controller to raise your boost. This alone will increase spool more than anything. As the wastegate cracks at about half the boost it's rated at. Be aware that rich conditions and lack of timing create a ton of heat and is very hard on your turbo.
05-24-2012, 05:51 PM
#25
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**** dude you're in Seattle? I will be over there in a few weekends. The rich + retarded timing setup only is effective while on a 2 step. Being rich and having low timing while rolling makes the car sluggish and doesn't increase spool. You want to keep the car responsive as possible and get the rpms to increase rapidly to light that thing off. You want to stay around 12.5-12.8 afr and n/a timing before you start to tip into boost. If you want to setup a 2 step timing table (isn't needed really with m6) there is a way to setup this in your idle timing table and it disables as soon as you move.
Check for any leaks, hot side and cold side. Wrap the pipes and install a turbo blanket if you do not have this already done. If you want to run 11lbs of boost install a 6lb wastegate spring and use a manual boost controller to raise your boost. This alone will increase spool more than anything. As the wastegate cracks at about half the boost it's rated at. Be aware that rich conditions and lack of timing create a ton of heat and is very hard on your turbo.
Check for any leaks, hot side and cold side. Wrap the pipes and install a turbo blanket if you do not have this already done. If you want to run 11lbs of boost install a 6lb wastegate spring and use a manual boost controller to raise your boost. This alone will increase spool more than anything. As the wastegate cracks at about half the boost it's rated at. Be aware that rich conditions and lack of timing create a ton of heat and is very hard on your turbo.
thats good to know that would be the end result.ill have to look at my logs,i belive im going in to be at 110 kpa.im gonna look into setting up a 2 step thru the idle timing table tonight thanks for the heads up. even though im running a ten bolt it still may come in handy the way i launch the car at the track.
checked the hot side last week all is good so far no leaks yet.i do need o run a pressure test one of these days.exhaust is all wrapped only thing i dont have is a blanket. idk if its really worth while on a rear mount but probly is,they are cheap enough tho.i currently already have a mbc in the car, i plan on eventually running up to 18psi.i had it turned up at one point on a differnt timing table and it deffinitly did spool alot faster, but i started blowing spark out around 14psi on tr6s gapped at .028.it even blew spark out at 6psi at times.not worried about the heat on the turbo currently due to running a on3 t76.at some point i may upgrade to a bw s475 but at the same token i may build a front mount that keeps ac and simaler to the ptk kit using manifolds
thanks
Your advice is always appreciated on the M6 matters. I know you have tried this stuff before.
05-25-2012, 11:21 AM
#28
maybe just to show what we did differently you could post a screen shot of your old timing table and the new one.
Just to give others an idea.
Again I wouldn't pull any timing till around 115-120kpa. Your timing is very very conservative as is if you happen to get KR on tip in then of course pull the amount out that the KR is pulling out. I am 95% certain you won't though.
Your stuck with 91 octane like Nitroused though aren't you? If you haven't thought about it, a methanol injection kit is the best thing you can do for a boosted car on pump gas.
05-25-2012, 11:33 AM
#29
maybe just to show what we did differently you could post a screen shot of your old timing table and the new one.
Just to give others an idea.
Again I wouldn't pull any timing till around 115-120kpa. Your timing is very very conservative as is if you happen to get KR on tip in then of course pull the amount out that the KR is pulling out. I am 95% certain you won't though.
Your stuck with 91 octane like Nitroused though aren't you? If you haven't thought about it, a methanol injection kit is the best thing you can do for a boosted car on pump gas.
Just to give others an idea.
Again I wouldn't pull any timing till around 115-120kpa. Your timing is very very conservative as is if you happen to get KR on tip in then of course pull the amount out that the KR is pulling out. I am 95% certain you won't though.
Your stuck with 91 octane like Nitroused though aren't you? If you haven't thought about it, a methanol injection kit is the best thing you can do for a boosted car on pump gas.
I guess this is why N2O is SOOO effective. Its an instant hit as soon as you go WOT!
05-25-2012, 12:16 PM
#30
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maybe just to show what we did differently you could post a screen shot of your old timing table and the new one.
Just to give others an idea.
Again I wouldn't pull any timing till around 115-120kpa. Your timing is very very conservative as is if you happen to get KR on tip in then of course pull the amount out that the KR is pulling out. I am 95% certain you won't though.
Your stuck with 91 octane like Nitroused though aren't you? If you haven't thought about it, a methanol injection kit is the best thing you can do for a boosted car on pump gas.
Just to give others an idea.
Again I wouldn't pull any timing till around 115-120kpa. Your timing is very very conservative as is if you happen to get KR on tip in then of course pull the amount out that the KR is pulling out. I am 95% certain you won't though.
Your stuck with 91 octane like Nitroused though aren't you? If you haven't thought about it, a methanol injection kit is the best thing you can do for a boosted car on pump gas.
05-25-2012, 02:13 PM
#31
yeah when i get home tonight ill take some screen shots to give people a idea.yeah im on 92 octane pump.i have thought about using meth but i dont like the idea of relying on it and having to refill the resivoir all the time.but i still may do it. part of the reason i havent got a kit yet is even on a warm day so far in boost i have not gotten above 80 degree iat.
I think you are going to be really surprised when you put that timing table in it how much it wakes up.
I have 24* timing in your car until 3200 and at 3600 I backed it down to 13.0 from 3600-4400 and at 4800 IIRC you're at 13.5. If your car makes a good bit of boost (more than 3-4psi) @3200rpm we can back the timing retard start from 3200 to 2800.
It should really really help. If it's too much let me know and I can back the timing ramp down a few degrees in the spool regions. I think you will really like it though
Also injecting methanol before you get into boost wouldn't make the car run very well.
Anyone that has a methanol kit I'm sure as I have done on accident playing with your onset point the methanol begins to spray, setting it too early and it beginning to spray at 1psi or before it just sputters and doesn't want to run until it get's some boost going.
Yes you could pull fuel and do all that stuff, but I have seen just as good results with doing it this way. Most don't start to inject methanol until at least 3-4psi with most not starting until 5-6psi and then ramping it in to full at or near there max boost psi setting.
I would look into it at least stangtrader. It's a good safe guard. There is a very easy way to keep your tune safe running methanol injection.
The methanol injection helps the IAT's cool so much that there will be a big difference in the IAT's if it were not to work. Like you are doing now you can pull a bunch of timing out at a set F* in the IAT table so if it didn't work you don't nuke your motor.
It's 3.50-4.00 a gallon for M1 almost anywhere in the U.S. which is the same price as gasoline. I used a 85/15 to 80/20 mixture of water and methanol in my old turbo car. I found that the 15-20% of water in the mixture kept the IAT's down just as much as 50/50 and with 80% methanol instead of 50% I was getting more octane out of it that way also.
If you do start mixing things in with your methanol like water, you have to be 100% consistent on the amount you mix each time because even though methanol richens up the tune a good bit, water leans it out. So if you don't mix the same ratio's each time it doesn't work out the same. This is why most of the time I tell people just to run straight 100% M1.
Only reason I did it the way I did is because I was experimenting with getting every little last bit of power out of my car.
Last edited by Fbodyjunkie06; 05-25-2012 at 02:25 PM.
05-25-2012, 09:15 PM
#32
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thank you for the insight. im going to load up the file tommorow and take the car for a spin.im excited to see how it reacts.i also started looking at meth kits.right now im just trying to decide between the coolingmist universal and the devilsown universal kits.They are within $10 of each other main concern is the customer service i receive,im kinda a big stickler on that front.i wont be ordering it till next month tho.when i do,do you think i should start out with a m8 or m10 nozzle?i thought about the trunk mount kit but i came to the realization i should not drive in the rain with the rear mount.i did the other day and the filter got so soaked that it caused my afr to dip in the lower tens if i got in BE due to the restriction and at idel was sitting at around 17.heres some screen shots of the timing map and timing table table dosent show lower kpa values due to my tuning laptop being a net book.
thanks joe
original table
modified table thanks to fbodyjunkie
thanks joe
original table
modified table thanks to fbodyjunkie
Last edited by stangtrader; 05-26-2012 at 04:02 PM.
05-25-2012, 09:31 PM
#33
oddly enough I found that running my car lean on the lower rpms and on the 2step built boost exponentially faster than rich and retarded. 30* and around a 12.0 afr builds almost 15lbs at 3k rpms Lean is Mean! I wouldnt try it on pump gas but you get the general Idea. Some of the more race setups have been know to run 40+ degrees on the 2 step, they are also on e85 or c16 and run upwards of 30lbs down track though.
05-25-2012, 11:55 PM
#36
oddly enough I found that running my car lean on the lower rpms and on the 2step built boost exponentially faster than rich and retarded. 30* and around a 12.0 afr builds almost 15lbs at 3k rpms Lean is Mean! I wouldnt try it on pump gas but you get the general Idea. Some of the more race setups have been know to run 40+ degrees on the 2 step, they are also on e85 or c16 and run upwards of 30lbs down track though.
With a stick you have no load on the turbo so you have to creat heat. Heat spools the turbine.
In an auto we use lean afr and lots of timing to initially spool the turbo and then retarding timing on the transbrake to take the combustion out of the chamber and into the exhaust piping pre turbine. Closer the bang is to the turbine the faster and harder it spools. By running negative timing and rich afr on a m6 you are effectively doing the same thing as the auto spool up routine minus the footbrake part. With the auto when you go from footbrake to transbrake, and you retard it on the transbrake it moves the bang out of the chamber. Same thing with rich afr and negative timing on a m6, it moves the combustion out of the cylinder and makes the headers/crossover so hot that it lights off the fuel and it bangs in there.
I agree with you 100% about using timing and lean afr's....with an auto
It doesn't work the same with a stick though.
05-26-2012, 12:02 AM
#37
Looking back at your screenshot of the timing table that is suppose to be the one I sent you, it looks right all the way to .088 g/cyl.
I think you have a table in your tune that is pulling timing out, because it is global across the board from .088 down to 1.0. It's really weird unless you just didn't copy and paste the last digits from those cells on down.
I think you have a table in your tune that is pulling timing out, because it is global across the board from .088 down to 1.0. It's really weird unless you just didn't copy and paste the last digits from those cells on down.
05-26-2012, 01:52 AM
#38
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Hmmm. Good question. Im about 99% I copied it correctly. I wonder if the decimals have any thing to do with that, I have a 98 pcm after all. I thought the drop off was weird but I noticed on alot of files for boosted cars I saw in the repository were like that. I wonder tho if its my laptop screwing something up tho,i had some issues recently with the scanner and vcm suite after a windows update. Ill bring my laptop to work tomorrow and check it out in between cars at work. shitty parts is its gonna bug the hell out of me while I try to sleep lol. Ill probly bring my other lapto to and see if I have a issue with that.
05-26-2012, 02:02 AM
#39
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Hey heath,yeah the few times its seen rain its been fine untill I was headed out i90 towards hwy18 when we had a pretty good downpour.I should build one. I just hate working on the car at home. I'll probly build one next week for those just in case instances.
05-26-2012, 02:06 AM
#40
Hmmm. Good question. Im about 99% I copied it correctly. I wonder if the decimals have any thing to do with that, I have a 98 pcm after all. I thought the drop off was weird but I noticed on alot of files for boosted cars I saw in the repository were like that. I wonder tho if its my laptop screwing something up tho,i had some issues recently with the scanner and vcm suite after a windows update. Ill bring my laptop to work tomorrow and check it out in between cars at work. shitty parts is its gonna bug the hell out of me while I try to sleep lol. Ill probly bring my other lapto to and see if I have a issue with that.
It should be a mirror image of your table cells.