Lets talk faster spool
Its spooling awesome now,better than it has yet to date. That was a huge help. Timing table is one thing that for some reason I understand but dont properly know how to set up. No knock yet. I have three logs so far and the first two have no kr. I just got back from a drive and havent taken a peak yet.im gonna start playing with pe and be next. Just have to take some fuel out,cars hitting 10.0 afr in boost. Im gonna shoot nitroused a pm here shortly
Using PE for AFR and using BE as overboost are just one of his tricks he has learned.
For sure get with him. He will have your car tuned like it should.
Little update after getting the fueling dialed in a little closer, the timing table plus a few pounds of boost made a big big difference. Car spools pretty fast now and around 4300rpm traction goes out the window in second gear.I wish I had the gopro with me in the car. Im amazed how how big off a difference the timing made even before I bumped the boost up to 13psi. I belive I am experiencing some slight burst knock from looking over my log. Going to work on that tomorrow. But definitely need to get a cam, shifting at 5500 rpm is definitely hindering performance.
Little update after getting the fueling dialed in a little closer, the timing table plus a few pounds of boost made a big big difference. Car spools pretty fast now and around 4300rpm traction goes out the window in second gear.I wish I had the gopro with me in the car. Im amazed how how big off a difference the timing made even before I bumped the boost up to 13psi. I belive I am experiencing some slight burst knock from looking over my log. Going to work on that tomorrow. But definitely need to get a cam, shifting at 5500 rpm is definitely hindering performance.
I can soften the mid range timing table from 4000-5200. Then ramp it back in after 5600. If you aren't shifting but at 5500 then we can just leave it flat from 4000-6000. Or you can do it just as easily. You can take it down from 14 degrees to 13 across the board first. If that doesn't help do this.
Try adding a slight bit of fuel to the spots where you are getting the burst knock if what I said first doesn't help.
13psi on 91 octane at 13-14 degrees timing is all I would run. I would even take it down a psi or two on 91 solely. If you had methanol injection I'd say no problem, but just straight 91 I am leery that is where your knock is coming from.
Ill have to look at the log when I get home but it was happening right after I release the clutch and go to wot.I can take a screen shot and post it up. It comes in then tapers off. Im pretty positive its either burst knock or false knock. Last time I had my car tuned the tuner was having the same issue and couldnt get rid of it,from my understanding 98s like to throw alot of false knock.currently its all happening in the same cell. Which is iirc 4000rpm at 1 g/cyl.also if iirc the table is at 12° now in that cell but it keeps throwing the same amount of kr. As far as fueling its still pretty rich in boost 10.afr.I think I im gonna order
Are you logging burst knock and spark knock separate? If so then yes it is most likely just burst knock.
If it's still that rich then it might not be spark knock. Try and get it leaned up into the 11.2-11.4 range at least for now.
I have some good ideas for your tune if you want to implement them.
As a last resort you can turn the sensitivity down on your kr sensors to try and rid the problem once you have ruled out for sure it is not spark knock.
In fact the easiest way to tell if you have spark knock if to pull your plugs out and see if there are shiny speckles of aluminum on your plugs porcelain or black peck marks scattered on the porcelain.
If it's still that rich then it might not be spark knock. Try and get it leaned up into the 11.2-11.4 range at least for now.
I have some good ideas for your tune if you want to implement them.
As a last resort you can turn the sensitivity down on your kr sensors to try and rid the problem once you have ruled out for sure it is not spark knock.
In fact the easiest way to tell if you have spark knock if to pull your plugs out and see if there are shiny speckles of aluminum on your plugs porcelain or black peck marks scattered on the porcelain.
you can get burst knock from rattling pipes and a few other things, however if it wasnt and issue at less boost and how you have it with 13psi, I would back it down some. I agree 13 psi and 14* is a bit much for 91 without methanol. I too use the PE tables for afr and use my be for overboost situations for tuning. Seems to be work fairly well that way.
Are you logging burst knock and spark knock separate? If so then yes it is most likely just burst knock.
If it's still that rich then it might not be spark knock. Try and get it leaned up into the 11.2-11.4 range at least for now.
I have some good ideas for your tune if you want to implement them.
As a last resort you can turn the sensitivity down on your kr sensors to try and rid the problem once you have ruled out for sure it is not spark knock.
In fact the easiest way to tell if you have spark knock if to pull your plugs out and see if there are shiny speckles of aluminum on your plugs porcelain or black peck marks scattered on the porcelain.
If it's still that rich then it might not be spark knock. Try and get it leaned up into the 11.2-11.4 range at least for now.
I have some good ideas for your tune if you want to implement them.
As a last resort you can turn the sensitivity down on your kr sensors to try and rid the problem once you have ruled out for sure it is not spark knock.
In fact the easiest way to tell if you have spark knock if to pull your plugs out and see if there are shiny speckles of aluminum on your plugs porcelain or black peck marks scattered on the porcelain.
and heres another pic of the same file on the same drive. this wot run was a minute before but shows no knock at the same boost level
at the moment i am highly doubting im seeing actual spark knock,i think part of it is my AFR at the moment.A i need to change my PE table to comand 11.6 B i need to take some fuel out of it and C i think part of it is the 98 sensitivity issues.if you look at the high lighted portion of the log you will see im pulling almost 15 degress of kr at 1.5psi of boost with a AFR of12.51and its right when i am back in to 100% throttle. unfortunitly i cannot log burst knock unless i need a special histogram to do it.
i have pulled the plugs a few times after some hard wot runs and so far i see no sign of detonation on them,granted this was on my old file,not the one i sent.it was a even older file i set up with 17 degrees on 8 psi. from my understanding its typical to disable burst knock on forced inducted cars due to rapid air changes,is this correct?i havent messed with any of my knock sensor setting yet cause i need to read and learn what the proper method is.so far i have seen a few differnt methods.id be interested to hear to hear some ideas of thing to implement in the tune.
thanks
Last edited by stangtrader; May 27, 2012 at 07:51 PM.
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Verdad Gallardo you can get burst knock from rattling pipes and a few other things, however if it wasnt and issue at less boost and how you have it with 13psi, I would back it down some. I agree 13 psi and 14* is a bit much for 91 without methanol. I too use the PE tables for afr and use my be for overboost situations for tuning. Seems to be work fairly well that way.
A lot of times our cars in boost have a knock tendency between 4000-5000rpm. A lot of them do it.
Take the timing from where it is currently 14 to 11 from 4000-4800rpm. At 5200 make it 12 and 5600 make it 13.
Turn the boost down to 10psi, I think 13psi is still too much for 91 octane.
Did you copy the high octane table to the low octane table? Or is the low octane table still the same as it was before? If so that is why it is pulling so much timing out it is deferring to that table under knock.
Set your KPA PE enable to 95kpa and run the same AFR in your PE and BE tables up to the KPA you want to run(max boost you're running) then set the BE to a richer afr above that you will never see like 10.5:1 afr all the way up to where it maxes out in kpa. Setting them both the same you won't have to worry about which gear loads the turbo to what AFR.
If and when you add methanol injection you can have also add fuel if the IAT gets too high and pull timing as you already are doing.
You can also use the afr spark correction table to also add timing while your commanding 14.1-12.8 afr so you have good timing transitioning into boost. And also use this table if you ever over boost and command that 10.5:1 you can have it pull timing out if it ever commands that afr so it's super safe.
Take the timing from where it is currently 14 to 11 from 4000-4800rpm. At 5200 make it 12 and 5600 make it 13.
Turn the boost down to 10psi, I think 13psi is still too much for 91 octane.
Did you copy the high octane table to the low octane table? Or is the low octane table still the same as it was before? If so that is why it is pulling so much timing out it is deferring to that table under knock.
Set your KPA PE enable to 95kpa and run the same AFR in your PE and BE tables up to the KPA you want to run(max boost you're running) then set the BE to a richer afr above that you will never see like 10.5:1 afr all the way up to where it maxes out in kpa. Setting them both the same you won't have to worry about which gear loads the turbo to what AFR.
If and when you add methanol injection you can have also add fuel if the IAT gets too high and pull timing as you already are doing.
You can also use the afr spark correction table to also add timing while your commanding 14.1-12.8 afr so you have good timing transitioning into boost. And also use this table if you ever over boost and command that 10.5:1 you can have it pull timing out if it ever commands that afr so it's super safe.
Also set your EQ ratio table in open/closed loop to 12.8 at 100kpa across the rpm cells.
Then iterpolate it back to 14.7:1 in your cruising and idle rpm's at operating temperature. This way you have good lean AFR transitioning into boost up to 100kpa then your PE kicks in and takes over.
Keep your AFR you have now below and above operating temperature.
After you do all this shoot me an email so I can see if you did it right.
Also I would command 12.0:1 at 0-1psi. At 2psi command 11.6:1 and from 3psi and up command your 11.4 afr.
Then iterpolate it back to 14.7:1 in your cruising and idle rpm's at operating temperature. This way you have good lean AFR transitioning into boost up to 100kpa then your PE kicks in and takes over.
Keep your AFR you have now below and above operating temperature.
After you do all this shoot me an email so I can see if you did it right.
Also I would command 12.0:1 at 0-1psi. At 2psi command 11.6:1 and from 3psi and up command your 11.4 afr.
I set up everything as you recommended.i will email you the file shortly. I also changed the pe table earlier and took a quick spin and hit 2second hard once plus a few other wot runs and recorded zero knock.
Thanks
Thanks
I think you were getting real knock then, then again as I said our cars have a tendency to want to pick up knock in the 4000-5000rpm which is also where maximum load occurs.
If you turned the boost down to 10psi and set it all up like I said and haven't gotten any knock then you should be good to go.
If you want and if you did indeed turn the boost down to 10psi along with reducing the timing, you can add the timing back in a degree at a time to where it was at 13-14 as long as no knock shows up.
Does it feel a lot more responsive? How is boost on tip in?
What is the AFR at WOT?
If you turned the boost down to 10psi and set it all up like I said and haven't gotten any knock then you should be good to go.
If you want and if you did indeed turn the boost down to 10psi along with reducing the timing, you can add the timing back in a degree at a time to where it was at 13-14 as long as no knock shows up.
Does it feel a lot more responsive? How is boost on tip in?
What is the AFR at WOT?
I think you were getting real knock then, then again as I said our cars have a tendency to want to pick up knock in the 4000-5000rpm which is also where maximum load occurs.
If you turned the boost down to 10psi and set it all up like I said and haven't gotten any knock then you should be good to go.
If you want and if you did indeed turn the boost down to 10psi along with reducing the timing, you can add the timing back in a degree at a time to where it was at 13-14 as long as no knock shows up.
Does it feel a lot more responsive? How is boost on tip in?
What is the AFR at WOT?
If you turned the boost down to 10psi and set it all up like I said and haven't gotten any knock then you should be good to go.
If you want and if you did indeed turn the boost down to 10psi along with reducing the timing, you can add the timing back in a degree at a time to where it was at 13-14 as long as no knock shows up.
Does it feel a lot more responsive? How is boost on tip in?
What is the AFR at WOT?
thanks
You're doing the right thing, pull your plugs again and check for speckling. That is the sure fire way to make sure. I know it seems redundant to do it again as you just did it yesterday, but just do it lol.
You might really be seeing false knock, but we won't know for sure unless you turn the boost down and or add the race gas.
I am glad you like how much more responsive the car is. Having a turbo car that is quick to spool and that still pins you back in the seat is something most people don't think is possible unless you have a smaller sized turbine.
What's really going to blow your mind is when I tell you I can make a T6 1.32 96mm turbine housing spool just the same as your T3/T4 rear mount. On a rear mount set-up no less hehehe.
You might really be seeing false knock, but we won't know for sure unless you turn the boost down and or add the race gas.
I am glad you like how much more responsive the car is. Having a turbo car that is quick to spool and that still pins you back in the seat is something most people don't think is possible unless you have a smaller sized turbine.
What's really going to blow your mind is when I tell you I can make a T6 1.32 96mm turbine housing spool just the same as your T3/T4 rear mount. On a rear mount set-up no less hehehe.
Lol some point I may go bigger,but by then I may be willing to ditch my ac.but I may go to a bw s475 for a bigger turbine. funny you mention it I was up till around 2 in the morning pulling and checking all my plugs.all look good no signs of detonation. And well the typical crappy seattle weather is back,its looking like rain all week. 
Once the rain clears up im either gonna turn the boost down or put some race gas in it and test it.probly going to order my meth kit on the 20th next month.thanks again for the help ill post an update soon as the weather clears up.
Once the rain clears up im either gonna turn the boost down or put some race gas in it and test it.probly going to order my meth kit on the 20th next month.thanks again for the help ill post an update soon as the weather clears up.
No problem.
If when you put the race gas in and it doesn't go away/turn boost down, turn the decay rate on your knock sensors down.
There might be some other ways to keep them operational still without completely disabling them altogether I'll have to ask or someone on here can probably chime in.
If when you put the race gas in and it doesn't go away/turn boost down, turn the decay rate on your knock sensors down.
There might be some other ways to keep them operational still without completely disabling them altogether I'll have to ask or someone on here can probably chime in.
Few things I will add, the 98 car that I posted the timing table for. He was getting knock for a bad balancer (stock one, mostly due to the heat from the front mount) We also upgraded to the newer style knock sensors. You might try to turn down the sensitivity of the knock sensors as well, to keep from getting false knock, as long as you verify you're not actually getting any detonation.