Lets talk electronic boost controllers!
#42
that ia why you run on board air, and never have to worry about co2 levels
or leaks. and have air at the track on board for tire pressure changes without bringing a tank or compressor
definately NOT pointless on the street
or leaks. and have air at the track on board for tire pressure changes without bringing a tank or compressor
definately NOT pointless on the street
Last edited by rotary1307cc; 09-17-2012 at 05:29 PM.
#43
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The AMS1000 is the standard. No question about it but it does have it's drawbacks. The way that they do their ramp rates is very confusing and can sometimes require a little pen and paper to figure out.
The AMS2000 is much better (and even more expensive) as it uses a PC interface and allows for more plotting/stages.
I personally ran teh AMS500 for a little over a year and it worked very well. Specially with CO2. I will never ever bother messing with boost control without CO2.
So the only reason that I sold my AMS500 is because I am now using the Holley ECU and am beta testing the boost control. This new boost control has as many or more features than the AMS 2000. The one thing that the AMS does do better is that they've managed to come up with some sort of universal algorithm that just works without giving the controller any control guidelines (P.I.D. Control). With the Holley, you have to go thru a setup process to see how your particular regulated source pressure, solenoids and MAP work together.
The AMS2000 is much better (and even more expensive) as it uses a PC interface and allows for more plotting/stages.
I personally ran teh AMS500 for a little over a year and it worked very well. Specially with CO2. I will never ever bother messing with boost control without CO2.
So the only reason that I sold my AMS500 is because I am now using the Holley ECU and am beta testing the boost control. This new boost control has as many or more features than the AMS 2000. The one thing that the AMS does do better is that they've managed to come up with some sort of universal algorithm that just works without giving the controller any control guidelines (P.I.D. Control). With the Holley, you have to go thru a setup process to see how your particular regulated source pressure, solenoids and MAP work together.
But yea, before that it's tricky lol!!
Last edited by GrahamHill; 09-17-2012 at 08:23 PM.
#46
9 Second Club
IMO if you cannot control boost with normal boosted air as the pressure source, something is very badly wrong with your setup.
The only extreme scenario Ive encountered that needs something like that, are WRC cars. But that's because they are forced to run restrictors before the compressor which just messes everything up. So they have to force the turbocharger to do things it normally wouldnt want to do.
Drag cars and certainly not road cars are rarely ever in that situation.
I know guys here in the UK with 8sec street legal 4cyl turbo cars and they have never needed or used CO2 for boost control, and they have no problems.
It's hard to see what benefits it would offer for the majority when normal setups work perfectly.
Last edited by stevieturbo; 09-18-2012 at 04:29 AM.
#47
10 Second Club
iTrader: (33)
In my case the ability to run a much lower boost, I can run as low as 3lbs and as much as I want(up to 25lbs right now). For when running on street tires(not drag radials) for a heads up series this helps A LOT. It allows me to add pressure on the line, ramp in slow thru the 30ft, quick form 30 to 60 then PULL OUT boost as I hit the bump in the track at ~100ft, then add it back in quickly after that.
Also with footbraking, the co2 can add pressure on top of the gate to allow buliding more boost at lower rpm without the need of a 2 step.
Also with co2 you'll be able to spool faster and change boost levels(ramp rates example with the ams) much quicker. Just about EVERY fast 8.5/275/10.5/etc turbo car in the states has co2.
Also with footbraking, the co2 can add pressure on top of the gate to allow buliding more boost at lower rpm without the need of a 2 step.
Also with co2 you'll be able to spool faster and change boost levels(ramp rates example with the ams) much quicker. Just about EVERY fast 8.5/275/10.5/etc turbo car in the states has co2.
#48
Is is just like Justin states, the street is where the air/co2 is awesome
using just manifold pressure for the controller you cannot run very soft springs and then get high boost out of those springs
with co2/compressed air, for example on the street you could hold down to 2psi for a launch on the street but still ramp it up to 20psi+ as the pull progresses
you can save different configs with the AMS1000, 1 second to change from a track program to one of a couple different other track/street programs you have saved
and about figuring ramp rates, when you view the boost setup you can see in realtime what all the stages and ramps will be doing
using just manifold pressure for the controller you cannot run very soft springs and then get high boost out of those springs
with co2/compressed air, for example on the street you could hold down to 2psi for a launch on the street but still ramp it up to 20psi+ as the pull progresses
you can save different configs with the AMS1000, 1 second to change from a track program to one of a couple different other track/street programs you have saved
and about figuring ramp rates, when you view the boost setup you can see in realtime what all the stages and ramps will be doing
#52
10 Second Club
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I have a Boost Leash by Sherwood performance, it has most of the features the AMS100 has except for the road race stuff, it's almost half the price too. I love it, easy to use. It's Co2 based as well but the 2.5# bottle lasts a long time since your regulating the pressure way down to 85#
#53
9 Second Club
A decent ecu will do pretty much all of the things you guys are saying, in some cases more. I can see that using a high pressure source does offer a slightly wider range of control, and perhaps faster ( although the limits will still be the turbo and engine itself regardless of how fast or slow you move the wastegate)
But I wouldnt be happy ramming the w/g shut to blindly increase or hold boost without also monitoring shaft speed. If there was a problem somewhere, you could easily end up overspinning the turbo without realising it and causing damage.
This could happen with normal boosted air, but is far less likely.
A very good ecu will allow you to control boost based on shaft speed, boost, rpm, load, w/g positon, speed and many other parameters. Ive even seen some guys use a G-sensor so if accel drops below a certain g....it ups the boost, provided the wheels are still maintaining traction.
No external controller will ever allow that level of control without serious integration into the car, which a decent ecu already is.
But as others have stated, any controller can use a high pressure source or CO2 if you wanted.
I assume there are failsafes in place as the CO2 bottle starts to run done ? How will the controller behave ?
The benefits of using CO2 really are minimal, and given the bottle can and will run done, not exactly practical for a street car that gets driven and used often. Unless it will last for hundreds of miles ?
#57
9 Second Club
Some modern cars do have electronically actuated w/g. I know some BMW's use this on their diesels. Not sure about petrol's though.
It's easier on a diesel as they run much cooler and so far it's only on variable vane turbos.
I'm sure it is possible, but reliability would be the biggest unknown.
Using conventional air and springs just works so well and easily and is pretty much 100% reliable.
#58
Stevieturbo, not to break ***** here, but the thread was about electronic boost controllers.
You're talking about integrating a complete standalone ecu which requires major tuning and rewiring. Coupled with the fact you can pick up an AMS-1000 or Eboost2 for $500-$800, and a standalone (or piggyback) ecu will run you well over $1000. You are talking as if a new ecu is plu-n-play and forget it. How about the money the ppl will be spending on a new tune if they don't have the ability or time to do it themselves?
MM ran 8.6s and Rotary1307cc ran 8.80s at round 160mph-ish. So I'm gonna say that either the Eboost2 or the AMS1000 have little to prove in the 'install it and race it within a couple of hours' territory.
Aren't you a blower guy anyway?
You're talking about integrating a complete standalone ecu which requires major tuning and rewiring. Coupled with the fact you can pick up an AMS-1000 or Eboost2 for $500-$800, and a standalone (or piggyback) ecu will run you well over $1000. You are talking as if a new ecu is plu-n-play and forget it. How about the money the ppl will be spending on a new tune if they don't have the ability or time to do it themselves?
MM ran 8.6s and Rotary1307cc ran 8.80s at round 160mph-ish. So I'm gonna say that either the Eboost2 or the AMS1000 have little to prove in the 'install it and race it within a couple of hours' territory.
Aren't you a blower guy anyway?
#59
9 Second Club
Stevieturbo, not to break ***** here, but the thread was about electronic boost controllers.
You're talking about integrating a complete standalone ecu which requires major tuning and rewiring. Coupled with the fact you can pick up an AMS-1000 or Eboost2 for $500-$800, and a standalone (or piggyback) ecu will run you well over $1000. You are talking as if a new ecu is plu-n-play and forget it. How about the money the ppl will be spending on a new tune if they don't have the ability or time to do it themselves?
MM ran 8.6s and Rotary1307cc ran 8.80s at round 160mph-ish. So I'm gonna say that either the Eboost2 or the AMS1000 have little to prove in the 'install it and race it within a couple of hours' territory.
Aren't you a blower guy anyway?
You're talking about integrating a complete standalone ecu which requires major tuning and rewiring. Coupled with the fact you can pick up an AMS-1000 or Eboost2 for $500-$800, and a standalone (or piggyback) ecu will run you well over $1000. You are talking as if a new ecu is plu-n-play and forget it. How about the money the ppl will be spending on a new tune if they don't have the ability or time to do it themselves?
MM ran 8.6s and Rotary1307cc ran 8.80s at round 160mph-ish. So I'm gonna say that either the Eboost2 or the AMS1000 have little to prove in the 'install it and race it within a couple of hours' territory.
Aren't you a blower guy anyway?
And yes I do use boost control on my blower to reduce power in the lower gears to help with traction.
Boost control isnt limited to turbo engines you know.
And quoting what some cars have achieved is great. Although Ive a friend in the UK who ran 9 flat at 165mph with a 4 cyl Subaru using a bleed valve to control boost. What does it prove ? A $20 bleed valve is best ?
He's now running a flat 6 and using ecu boost control with no CO2 and currently at 8.4 at 170mph
No AMS or CO2 or $1500 boost controllers in sight either ?
I'm not knocking the AMS, and yes I do see your point. But electronic boost control comes in many forms, as does basic mechanical boost control.
Ive certainly never said anything against external controllers, Ive used plenty myself. And yes I agree that if they make installation and racing a quick and easy task then they are great. Which is another reason why I have used them. But they do have limitations, and in order to get the most from them they are not a simple 2 hour install.
But the biggest issue I had cost wise was with Skinnies controller with him saying it cost $1500. Now that is just ridiculous and overpriced hence making the comparison with a full standalone.
Because that is $1500 for just the boost control, nothing else. You've already had to purchase ecu tuning software which has it's limitations because you are buying additional boxes to do different tasks. So the cost of the overall package is well over $1500
So the comparison is valid.
#60
Ive built and tuned a hell of a lot more turbocharged cars in the last 20 years than I have supercharged.
And yes I do use boost control on my blower to reduce power in the lower gears to help with traction.
Boost control isnt limited to turbo engines you know.
And quoting what some cars have achieved is great. Although Ive a friend in the UK who ran 9 flat at 165mph with a 4 cyl Subaru using a bleed valve to control boost. What does it prove ? A $20 bleed valve is best ?
He's now running a flat 6 and using ecu boost control with no CO2 and currently at 8.4 at 170mph
No AMS or CO2 or $1500 boost controllers in sight either ?
I'm not knocking the AMS, and yes I do see your point. But electronic boost control comes in many forms, as does basic mechanical boost control.
Ive certainly never said anything against external controllers, Ive used plenty myself. And yes I agree that if they make installation and racing a quick and easy task then they are great. Which is another reason why I have used them. But they do have limitations, and in order to get the most from them they are not a simple 2 hour install.
But the biggest issue I had cost wise was with Skinnies controller with him saying it cost $1500. Now that is just ridiculous and overpriced hence making the comparison with a full standalone.
Because that is $1500 for just the boost control, nothing else. You've already had to purchase ecu tuning software which has it's limitations because you are buying additional boxes to do different tasks. So the cost of the overall package is well over $1500
So the comparison is valid.
And yes I do use boost control on my blower to reduce power in the lower gears to help with traction.
Boost control isnt limited to turbo engines you know.
And quoting what some cars have achieved is great. Although Ive a friend in the UK who ran 9 flat at 165mph with a 4 cyl Subaru using a bleed valve to control boost. What does it prove ? A $20 bleed valve is best ?
He's now running a flat 6 and using ecu boost control with no CO2 and currently at 8.4 at 170mph
No AMS or CO2 or $1500 boost controllers in sight either ?
I'm not knocking the AMS, and yes I do see your point. But electronic boost control comes in many forms, as does basic mechanical boost control.
Ive certainly never said anything against external controllers, Ive used plenty myself. And yes I agree that if they make installation and racing a quick and easy task then they are great. Which is another reason why I have used them. But they do have limitations, and in order to get the most from them they are not a simple 2 hour install.
But the biggest issue I had cost wise was with Skinnies controller with him saying it cost $1500. Now that is just ridiculous and overpriced hence making the comparison with a full standalone.
Because that is $1500 for just the boost control, nothing else. You've already had to purchase ecu tuning software which has it's limitations because you are buying additional boxes to do different tasks. So the cost of the overall package is well over $1500
So the comparison is valid.
1)Quoting what these 'street driven' cars achieved is important, as these guys do use these cars on the street. So it qualifies their boost controllers as being more than adequate.
2)You say in order to get the most from them, its more than a 2 hour install. Ok. How long is a complete ecu rewire and tune? Does that qualify for more or less than this 2 hour comparable?
3)Yes you completely have a point that Skinnies' controller is ridiculously expensive. I don't deny that. However it does do boost by mph, which is extremely effective on the street (back to cars driven on the street and how they are controlled at the track) as the boost by mph feature will definitely control traction on an auto and even more on a stick car. He ran mid 9s on normal, radial tires. Will your boy with the flat 6 only drop a second by using radial tires? Because really, this is what a good controller means to me.
So lets just say I'm the average guy who actually does all of my own tuning with the turbo already setup on the car, just needing a controller. Do I go out and buy a new ecu, hook it up, log, tune, log, tune (you know the drill) until I get it right? Or do I go spend the money on any of the top boost contollers (proven, have plenty of support from everyone that uses them here) that I can hook up and have running at 80% of their intended effectiveness within little time? Newer ECUs have their place as well, I think that 80% of the people can't be bothered to spend the time with them though, nor do they really need to unless they are pushing the limit.