My observations and opinions of current street/strip turbo LS trends.
08-14-2012, 08:08 PM
#101
TECH Junkie
iTrader: (3)
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Clayton, North Carolina
Posts: 3,898
Likes: 0
Received 6 Likes
on
6 Posts
I think this is all Jim does for a living, very specific info should be used for his customer work I would guess. If he needs healthcare from where you work I suspect he will pay you although he may not be happy about it!
Kurt
Kurt
The thing is that you got guys like the OP that have been in the turbo LS game for quite a while and on the other hand you have noobs like me that this is the first turbo build that I've done and didn't want to just simply drop a car off at a shop and cut a check. I'm no mechanic, I'm a project manager in healthcare so my background is nothing in automotive. As such the car game isn't second nature to me. It was ambitious to do a build in something I am not well versed in. I got alot of great info from guys like Tony and Bryan from speed inc and bought quite a bit of stuff through them. I've bought my cam(TU1 btw), springs, pushrods, had them set me up with a forged bottom end(brought in shortblock), driveshaft, sensors, gaskets, and so many little odds and ends. I brought my business to speed inc because I trusted their input.
I'm not gonna lie though. Before I bought my KYTP kit and began buying things from speedInc I first spoke to a couple of the guys at speedinc about my brother in law and I doing a turbo build in our garage and I got scoffed at. I was inquiring about hot and cold sides. i know they are in the business of turning out badass custom turbo cars, but I wanted to build something at home on my time and not wanting to drop a car off and 15k later get something I could have done myself. Maybe not as well, but nothing beats the pride of doing something on your own. At the same time I'm sure they get alot of people that come in asking only to give them a ton of info and never pull the trigger.
I'm not bashing speedinc or Jim and in a way praising him for what he and speedhin has contributed. What i'm getting at is can you truly blame someone for not having the most ideal setup out the gate when all they are trying to do is build their first turbo hotrod? I'm still making 700whp and spool damn quickly with my tc78 and forged 347. What I know now is soooooo much different than what I knew 2 years ago when I started the build. Only thing i'm changing is now I'm putting in a jakes 4l80e and a pt7675. I'm no guru but I tried different things than the norm. Some worked great like my flx puller fans on my griffen rad and others not so well (built 4l60e).
the bottom line is you have two types of people in this section. The guys like Jim that know this platform in and out and then you have guys like me that have to wade through the **** to find a legit answer. But for one to be mad or look down at the other is not conducive to sharing information or moving the community forward. At the end of the day. It is what it is, a message board where any genius or idiot can post anything.
I'm not gonna lie though. Before I bought my KYTP kit and began buying things from speedInc I first spoke to a couple of the guys at speedinc about my brother in law and I doing a turbo build in our garage and I got scoffed at. I was inquiring about hot and cold sides. i know they are in the business of turning out badass custom turbo cars, but I wanted to build something at home on my time and not wanting to drop a car off and 15k later get something I could have done myself. Maybe not as well, but nothing beats the pride of doing something on your own. At the same time I'm sure they get alot of people that come in asking only to give them a ton of info and never pull the trigger.
I'm not bashing speedinc or Jim and in a way praising him for what he and speedhin has contributed. What i'm getting at is can you truly blame someone for not having the most ideal setup out the gate when all they are trying to do is build their first turbo hotrod? I'm still making 700whp and spool damn quickly with my tc78 and forged 347. What I know now is soooooo much different than what I knew 2 years ago when I started the build. Only thing i'm changing is now I'm putting in a jakes 4l80e and a pt7675. I'm no guru but I tried different things than the norm. Some worked great like my flx puller fans on my griffen rad and others not so well (built 4l60e).
the bottom line is you have two types of people in this section. The guys like Jim that know this platform in and out and then you have guys like me that have to wade through the **** to find a legit answer. But for one to be mad or look down at the other is not conducive to sharing information or moving the community forward. At the end of the day. It is what it is, a message board where any genius or idiot can post anything.
08-14-2012, 10:57 PM
#104
9 Second Club
iTrader: (10)
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Joliet,IL and Las Vegas 50/50
Posts: 1,230
Likes: 0
Received 3 Likes
on
3 Posts
I guess where i was going with that is to show that there are alot of guys that don't do this sort of stuff for a living so being able to reach out for help from vendors and things is why we are here. I wish I could know as much as Jim does, but I never will. I'm not that immersed in it in my daily life.
08-15-2012, 04:35 AM
#107
TECH Junkie
iTrader: (3)
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Clayton, North Carolina
Posts: 3,898
Likes: 0
Received 6 Likes
on
6 Posts
Jim has a ton of experience, so it seems your best play would be call him and order the parts you need. Then bolt everything together and have fun!
Kurt
Kurt
I guess where i was going with that is to show that there are alot of guys that don't do this sort of stuff for a living so being able to reach out for help from vendors and things is why we are here. I wish I could know as much as Jim does, but I never will. I'm not that immersed in it in my daily life.
08-15-2012, 05:03 AM
#108
Good post earlier Kurt about controlling ALL the pieces to make a certain combo work. That never happens with a customer and usually in casual conversation you discover something very significant is different because ....
Also I agree about about not worth getting caught up in the forum arguments. I made that mistake years ago and it's not worth it. State your case and move on, there are plenty of things needing done.
Good original post BTW. It should help steer a lot of readers.
Also I agree about about not worth getting caught up in the forum arguments. I made that mistake years ago and it's not worth it. State your case and move on, there are plenty of things needing done.
Good original post BTW. It should help steer a lot of readers.
08-15-2012, 08:35 AM
#109
I've been saying basically same thing, and people just run over yeah. You try to get people to look into what they are doing before they spend the money. Big turbo, big cam and 227 heads or whatever.
And you see a guy with a modest cam. maybe twins, and 180-195 heads (speaking in terms of LTx) do the same power and maybe more. Its all about matching and effiency of the turbos.
Now the LSx motors they are a different beast.....but I've seen setups to where I think they are using a little to much also. And say it is streetable.....guess it comes down to what shade of gray your term streetable is.
Mine is being able to go down interstate at 80-85 and get 25 mpg seen both LTx and LSx 900-1000 hp cars do it. Now that is streetable. And how many cant get 15 mpg on a highway doing 60. Sure they make the power, but it isnt effiencent.
Let the turbo do what it is suppose to do....BOOST if you need a little bit more power crank it up.....turbos like to spin that is what they do!
I plan on using twin 58's with 67 turbines I think, but all I want for the street is 600-700, and be snappy, but for the track these will crank 1000+ hp out and make yeah happy.
And you see a guy with a modest cam. maybe twins, and 180-195 heads (speaking in terms of LTx) do the same power and maybe more. Its all about matching and effiency of the turbos.
Now the LSx motors they are a different beast.....but I've seen setups to where I think they are using a little to much also. And say it is streetable.....guess it comes down to what shade of gray your term streetable is.
Mine is being able to go down interstate at 80-85 and get 25 mpg seen both LTx and LSx 900-1000 hp cars do it. Now that is streetable. And how many cant get 15 mpg on a highway doing 60. Sure they make the power, but it isnt effiencent.
Let the turbo do what it is suppose to do....BOOST if you need a little bit more power crank it up.....turbos like to spin that is what they do!
I plan on using twin 58's with 67 turbines I think, but all I want for the street is 600-700, and be snappy, but for the track these will crank 1000+ hp out and make yeah happy.
08-15-2012, 09:01 AM
#110
There is no magic recipe for a turbo car or ANY car for that matter especially power adder vehicles.
Each one is different based on the customers engine size, compression, heads, intake, trans, rear gear, weight, what they want out of the car, what they use the car for, what class(if they race in a class) what the rules are in that class(again if they race in a class) etc. etc. etc.
It's just not that simple, but if more guys would take the time to privately ask questions then I'd be nearly 99% sure they would get their answers.
It's not going to be given out openly on a public forum. In that regards call the shop of the person you respect and trust in helping you build your car and/or make decisions on what you're going to use to build it with.
Each one is different based on the customers engine size, compression, heads, intake, trans, rear gear, weight, what they want out of the car, what they use the car for, what class(if they race in a class) what the rules are in that class(again if they race in a class) etc. etc. etc.
It's just not that simple, but if more guys would take the time to privately ask questions then I'd be nearly 99% sure they would get their answers.
It's not going to be given out openly on a public forum. In that regards call the shop of the person you respect and trust in helping you build your car and/or make decisions on what you're going to use to build it with.
08-15-2012, 09:22 AM
#111
In reference to cars w/ 88mm turbos just dipping in the 9s... whos to say the motor dont make the power but the rest of the car is not set up right? You see that alot. Converter, trans, gears, tires, suspension... I know my first turbo setup I used a less than par converter and was going through the traps at a 1000rpms more than the mph was showing.
08-15-2012, 10:28 AM
#112
Like PWRTRIP said, measuring a combo from pure ET and MPH is not going to be accurate.
There are just too many variables.
If we all had the same car and same track, it would be a OKAY to judge a engine/turbo combo with the ET and MPH
The argument could also be made that RWHP is incorrect because the tires spun on the dyno.
Or, the correction factors were fudged to make the combo look like it had better power.
But, if you have the graphical data, you should be able distinguish a good dyno run from a bad one.
I am still looking to see if anyone would be willing to give their engine combo, turbo, trans, car make/model and dyno graphs (as many details as possible really)
It would make for a VERY useful spread sheet that could be referenced to show what each turbo makes with all different engine combos.
Also, the data could be sorted and compared based on compression, fuel, timing, etc.
All of this data could be gathered into a bible that would end all of the REPETITIVE questions that everyone asks.
Also, it would show what setups fail!
And, it would be a trouble shooting guide to help a individual compare his setup to other proven ones.
If Jim at Speed Inc made 900 HP with 6262 twins on a 370 and John Doe was only making 700 HP with the IDENTICAL SETUP, he would know there was an issue somewhere.....or VISA VERA.
Again, I am willing to build a master spread sheet to collect all of this data and share with all members on here.
I would probably only ask that it be kept to a few people for editing so that no one bastardizes it.
There are just too many variables.
If we all had the same car and same track, it would be a OKAY to judge a engine/turbo combo with the ET and MPH
The argument could also be made that RWHP is incorrect because the tires spun on the dyno.
Or, the correction factors were fudged to make the combo look like it had better power.
But, if you have the graphical data, you should be able distinguish a good dyno run from a bad one.
I am still looking to see if anyone would be willing to give their engine combo, turbo, trans, car make/model and dyno graphs (as many details as possible really)
It would make for a VERY useful spread sheet that could be referenced to show what each turbo makes with all different engine combos.
Also, the data could be sorted and compared based on compression, fuel, timing, etc.
All of this data could be gathered into a bible that would end all of the REPETITIVE questions that everyone asks.
Also, it would show what setups fail!
And, it would be a trouble shooting guide to help a individual compare his setup to other proven ones.
If Jim at Speed Inc made 900 HP with 6262 twins on a 370 and John Doe was only making 700 HP with the IDENTICAL SETUP, he would know there was an issue somewhere.....or VISA VERA.
Again, I am willing to build a master spread sheet to collect all of this data and share with all members on here.
I would probably only ask that it be kept to a few people for editing so that no one bastardizes it.
08-15-2012, 01:25 PM
#113
It just annoys me when people rant and rave about how everyone is doing build *** backwards YET doesn't give out some guidelines to follow... including myself. Sure I can google "turbo tech" but that too vague, I want to know specifically turbo/ls combo tech. Either explain or keep lurking and laughing at shitty builds. I got more useful info off YB with guys willing to share but on a specific ls site like this everyone keeps it top secret.... rant over as well.
08-15-2012, 02:33 PM
#118
When you're building a turbo car each individual car is going to be different.
Turbo will be different, cam will be different, intake manifold will be different, compression, bore, stroke etc. etc. etc. unless you're going to copy from head to toe what someone else did that was willing to share their entire combo.
Here let me just do this:
If I were going to build a stock shortblock LQ4 set-up here is what I would want on a budget:
6.0 long block with 317 heads
stock style intake(ls6,ls2)
S480 T6 1.32 AR turbo (96mm turbine)
I just did a cam like this for a build identical to this and it ended up being 231/236 .617"/.612" 114+4 lsl intake lobe extreme marine exhaust lobe. Brian tooley platinum springs and 5/16" pushrods and stock rockers.
Truck manifolds
2.5" crossover
Th400 or powerglide transmission
9" converter street driven I'd want it in the 3800-4200 range, if it were a race only or mainly race only set-up I'd want it closer to 4600rpm maybe slightly more.
3.42 gear for 1/4 mile 3.55-3.73 for 1/8th mile and depending on what rear tire compound used(slick or radial) 3.73 for the slick, 3.55 for the radial(also depending on whether a TH400 was used or a PG)3.73 for a power glide 3.55 for a TH400.
4" downpipe and as un-restrictive of an exhaust set-up as I could build.
Turbo will be different, cam will be different, intake manifold will be different, compression, bore, stroke etc. etc. etc. unless you're going to copy from head to toe what someone else did that was willing to share their entire combo.
Here let me just do this:
If I were going to build a stock shortblock LQ4 set-up here is what I would want on a budget:
6.0 long block with 317 heads
stock style intake(ls6,ls2)
S480 T6 1.32 AR turbo (96mm turbine)
I just did a cam like this for a build identical to this and it ended up being 231/236 .617"/.612" 114+4 lsl intake lobe extreme marine exhaust lobe. Brian tooley platinum springs and 5/16" pushrods and stock rockers.
Truck manifolds
2.5" crossover
Th400 or powerglide transmission
9" converter street driven I'd want it in the 3800-4200 range, if it were a race only or mainly race only set-up I'd want it closer to 4600rpm maybe slightly more.
3.42 gear for 1/4 mile 3.55-3.73 for 1/8th mile and depending on what rear tire compound used(slick or radial) 3.73 for the slick, 3.55 for the radial(also depending on whether a TH400 was used or a PG)3.73 for a power glide 3.55 for a TH400.
4" downpipe and as un-restrictive of an exhaust set-up as I could build.
08-15-2012, 03:14 PM
#119
Well we don't share much tech info here because we are not site sponsors, and people get upset if we come in here throwing our chest out 
Other sites do not have this limitation and gladly welcome sponsors to share technical information openly. I don't have a problem with stating this even though I am a mod here.
You have to keep in mind sponsors make money by working for paying customers, not chatting it up all day online. We are glad to help out when we can, but we are not here to solve everyone's problems. We do that for paying customers. Maybe that isn't the feel good answer people want, but it is reality.
Other sites do not have this limitation and gladly welcome sponsors to share technical information openly. I don't have a problem with stating this even though I am a mod here.You have to keep in mind sponsors make money by working for paying customers, not chatting it up all day online. We are glad to help out when we can, but we are not here to solve everyone's problems. We do that for paying customers. Maybe that isn't the feel good answer people want, but it is reality.
08-15-2012, 03:26 PM
#120
Well we don't share much tech info here because we are not site sponsors, and people get upset if we come in here throwing our chest out Other sites do not have this limitation and gladly welcome sponsors to share technical information openly. I don't have a problem with stating this even though I am a mod here.
You have to keep in mind sponsors make money by working for paying customers, not chatting it up all day online. We are glad to help out when we can, but we are not here to solve everyone's problems. We do that for paying customers. Maybe that isn't the feel good answer people want, but it is reality.
Other sites do not have this limitation and gladly welcome sponsors to share technical information openly. I don't have a problem with stating this even though I am a mod here.You have to keep in mind sponsors make money by working for paying customers, not chatting it up all day online. We are glad to help out when we can, but we are not here to solve everyone's problems. We do that for paying customers. Maybe that isn't the feel good answer people want, but it is reality.
