4.0L WHIPPLE- <-Official thread.
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From: Dubai
My car should be ready next week, ill find out how the 4.0 core does. I also have a huge heat exchanger, decent fluid capacity and a high-flow pump.
i think the GT500 cores are about (W) 4.5 x (H) 4.5 x (L) 11 so pretty big. they are also rated at over 1000bhp by honeywell who make the core. also they are similar in size to the Garrett 1000bhp core.
I guess the reason for using the 2.9's intercooler core is they already have a lower manifold built for it that works with the front drive and drive shaft.
The same rail core is BIG but not perticularly thick if i remeber. Whipple say its 14”L x 7” W x 3.0” H. So its core great core volume than the GT500 and a larger surface area. So it should cool pretty bloody well! lol
Be nice to see what two of these cores stacked would do!
Chris.
I guess the reason for using the 2.9's intercooler core is they already have a lower manifold built for it that works with the front drive and drive shaft.
The same rail core is BIG but not perticularly thick if i remeber. Whipple say its 14”L x 7” W x 3.0” H. So its core great core volume than the GT500 and a larger surface area. So it should cool pretty bloody well! lol
Be nice to see what two of these cores stacked would do!
Chris.
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That is the intercooler change I wanted! I ran as high as 35psi water pressure and could not stop the outlet water climbing during a run. I need more volume across the core and the one I have runs water in and out at one end, cutting the flow volume by more than half. I would like that same core change, but I cannot get the guys at Whipple to answer emails asking if that is available.
Kurt
Kurt
Was this under normal driving conditions or extended load periods? If under extended load then i can see what you mean and its not good!
With these cores is there no way to tap in to the back of the intercooler and run the core as you intended? With the core in a single pass config. is ther eno worry about the back (or fornt depending on how its plumbed) getting hotter air than the front cylinders?
Chris.
Yes, I would like the temp to stop climbing in a perfect world. What I have now is outlet water temp almost equal to intake air temp. This tells me the core is great, but the flow is low. The water in would surely be lower, but I would like both to stabilize if the engine is steady state.
I was testing on engine dyno. I was parking the engine at 850hp and waiting for the water to stabilize, but it would not. The core now has the water go in on drivers side and travels forward on that side, then crosses over to the passenger side and travels back. If I could use the whole core without the double pass I believe the water flow will double and the inlet air temp will stabilize at a lower temp. When that happens the water out will be lower and stable, at least that's what I think!
Kurt
I was testing on engine dyno. I was parking the engine at 850hp and waiting for the water to stabilize, but it would not. The core now has the water go in on drivers side and travels forward on that side, then crosses over to the passenger side and travels back. If I could use the whole core without the double pass I believe the water flow will double and the inlet air temp will stabilize at a lower temp. When that happens the water out will be lower and stable, at least that's what I think!
Kurt
kurt, just tyring to understand this, would you expect to see a static water temp leaving the IC? I would have thought there would be some temp rise due to the time for the heat to be tranfered fully to the water. ie you would see a sharp temp rise and then a tialing off to a pretty static level.
Was this under normal driving conditions or extended load periods? If under extended load then i can see what you mean and its not good!
With these cores is there no way to tap in to the back of the intercooler and run the core as you intended? With the core in a single pass config. is ther eno worry about the back (or fornt depending on how its plumbed) getting hotter air than the front cylinders?
Chris.
Was this under normal driving conditions or extended load periods? If under extended load then i can see what you mean and its not good!
With these cores is there no way to tap in to the back of the intercooler and run the core as you intended? With the core in a single pass config. is ther eno worry about the back (or fornt depending on how its plumbed) getting hotter air than the front cylinders?
Chris.
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Joined: Aug 2004
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Yes, I would like the temp to stop climbing in a perfect world. What I have now is outlet water temp almost equal to intake air temp. This tells me the core is great, but the flow is low. The water in would surely be lower, but I would like both to stabilize if the engine is steady state.
I was testing on engine dyno. I was parking the engine at 850hp and waiting for the water to stabilize, but it would not. The core now has the water go in on drivers side and travels forward on that side, then crosses over to the passenger side and travels back. If I could use the whole core without the double pass I believe the water flow will double and the inlet air temp will stabilize at a lower temp. When that happens the water out will be lower and stable, at least that's what I think!
Kurt
I was testing on engine dyno. I was parking the engine at 850hp and waiting for the water to stabilize, but it would not. The core now has the water go in on drivers side and travels forward on that side, then crosses over to the passenger side and travels back. If I could use the whole core without the double pass I believe the water flow will double and the inlet air temp will stabilize at a lower temp. When that happens the water out will be lower and stable, at least that's what I think!
Kurt
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I am currently backed up with other engines, but I plan to look into it. I think the core is good if I can get more flow, just need to take it back apart and see if it's possible.
Kurt
Kurt
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Verdad Gallardo TECH Resident
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From: Dubai
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/1576564286-post10.html
The core on the ZR1 is not very good for high power engines as it was all sized for stock output engines, but water flow should help it slightly during power and would help it recover faster when you lift.
Kurt
Kurt
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theres a vendor that did something similar or possibly exactly what youre talking about on a ZR1. I wanted to do this mod on my bone stock ZR1 just because the idea sounded cool, its been a while and I cant remember any details
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/1576564286-post10.html
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/1576564286-post10.html
Also have you seen the double stacked ZR1 intercoolers? Cant remember which company did it now. It was in a ZL1 though as these would never fit in a vette!
How about remote coolers? The BMW mini cooper s ran a air to air intercooler with the supercharger and the Aston Matrin Vantage (not the v12s) ran dual eaton supercharger with twin air to water charger coolers mounted in front of the engine! Just thinking this would give MUCH greater flexibility for bigger cores to be used. Maybe even air to air!
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From: Dubai
I did see the setup posted in the above link. I think this retains the dual pass design of the stock ZR1 setup but enable larger feed / return lines to be run. Did you see the german guy on there that split the two cores into to separate cooling circuits and ran a HE for each? That seems like the only way to get a decent sized HE in the corvette without booking all the rad off!
Also have you seen the double stacked ZR1 intercoolers? Cant remember which company did it now. It was in a ZL1 though as these would never fit in a vette!
How about remote coolers? The BMW mini cooper s ran a air to air intercooler with the supercharger and the Aston Matrin Vantage (not the v12s) ran dual eaton supercharger with twin air to water charger coolers mounted in front of the engine! Just thinking this would give MUCH greater flexibility for bigger cores to be used. Maybe even air to air!
Also have you seen the double stacked ZR1 intercoolers? Cant remember which company did it now. It was in a ZL1 though as these would never fit in a vette!
How about remote coolers? The BMW mini cooper s ran a air to air intercooler with the supercharger and the Aston Matrin Vantage (not the v12s) ran dual eaton supercharger with twin air to water charger coolers mounted in front of the engine! Just thinking this would give MUCH greater flexibility for bigger cores to be used. Maybe even air to air!
Anyways I think what the guys did with the ZR1 is retain the use of the dual-pass which is supposedely more efficient BUT solve the issue thats inherent with dual pass coolers which is lack of flow volume (half of a single pass)? Man this topic is probably one of those things that not necessarily wory by common sense until you start doing real life testing.
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From: Dubai
I have a dual pass on the ZL1 but its a HUGE heat exchanger, I think it will go well with the rather huge intercooler under the blower. I need to call Whipple to confirm whats the size of the core because they do offer a core they call "FOAC" father of all cores and its huge, they use it on the marine set-ups.
Because of how big the heat exchanger is, I also went with a custom Ron Davis radiator to compensate for the airflow blocked towards the radiator since this has to be drivable here in Dubai.
Because of how big the heat exchanger is, I also went with a custom Ron Davis radiator to compensate for the airflow blocked towards the radiator since this has to be drivable here in Dubai.
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WOW! That's a massive HE! Is there any fans on the back to pull the air through? I know the gt500 lot have had a lot of sucses doing this. What's the dimensions of the HE?
On the air to air and air to water thing, most turbo application from manufactures are air to air. As long as you can get a big enough core and sufficent airflow it's really the best way! Obviously if it's harder to get airflow to (mid engined) or hard to package (top mounted supercharger) it's often raiser for them to go air to water. The other thing with supercharger and air to air is the risk of leaks. If you split a intercooler boot on a SC MINI the engine runs away with itself as it's no longer throttled.
I think the marine stuff that whipple offer is a copper based core to prevent corrosion when using salt water. The Marien cores are big from what I have seen. Be interesting to see if one would fit on your car though. Did you ever look into the 4.5 ltr blower?
Chris.
On the air to air and air to water thing, most turbo application from manufactures are air to air. As long as you can get a big enough core and sufficent airflow it's really the best way! Obviously if it's harder to get airflow to (mid engined) or hard to package (top mounted supercharger) it's often raiser for them to go air to water. The other thing with supercharger and air to air is the risk of leaks. If you split a intercooler boot on a SC MINI the engine runs away with itself as it's no longer throttled.
I think the marine stuff that whipple offer is a copper based core to prevent corrosion when using salt water. The Marien cores are big from what I have seen. Be interesting to see if one would fit on your car though. Did you ever look into the 4.5 ltr blower?
Chris.
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Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 910
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From: Dubai
WOW! That's a massive HE! Is there any fans on the back to pull the air through? I know the gt500 lot have had a lot of sucses doing this. What's the dimensions of the HE?
On the air to air and air to water thing, most turbo application from manufactures are air to air. As long as you can get a big enough core and sufficent airflow it's really the best way! Obviously if it's harder to get airflow to (mid engined) or hard to package (top mounted supercharger) it's often raiser for them to go air to water. The other thing with supercharger and air to air is the risk of leaks. If you split a intercooler boot on a SC MINI the engine runs away with itself as it's no longer throttled.
I think the marine stuff that whipple offer is a copper based core to prevent corrosion when using salt water. The Marien cores are big from what I have seen. Be interesting to see if one would fit on your car though. Did you ever look into the 4.5 ltr blower?
Chris.
On the air to air and air to water thing, most turbo application from manufactures are air to air. As long as you can get a big enough core and sufficent airflow it's really the best way! Obviously if it's harder to get airflow to (mid engined) or hard to package (top mounted supercharger) it's often raiser for them to go air to water. The other thing with supercharger and air to air is the risk of leaks. If you split a intercooler boot on a SC MINI the engine runs away with itself as it's no longer throttled.
I think the marine stuff that whipple offer is a copper based core to prevent corrosion when using salt water. The Marien cores are big from what I have seen. Be interesting to see if one would fit on your car though. Did you ever look into the 4.5 ltr blower?
Chris.
We started working on this car on November and there was no 4.5 liter blower at that point in time, plus lots of talk about a front feed 4liter blower that will have the small 2.9liter intercooler core in an effort to make it fit.
The problem with the 4liter blower is based on Whipples website its more like a 3.85 liter blower and not a 4, the 5.0 however it truely a 5.0 and the 8.3 is simply a 5.0 driven by the other rotor so it spins 66% quicker per one engine rev (5.0 x 1.66 = 8.3) and thus does not flow more CFM at max RPM than the 5.0 but does so at a slower blower speed.
I know that big core is corrosion resistant but I thought they could produce the same thing without the necessary corrosion protection for our vehicles, BUT the issue is fitting this stuff under a hood, the blower pulley sticks out far ahead and is very high the cowl has to ramp up really quick to clear the blower, I had a custom hood made to clear this monster, dont be fooled by the pictures its HUGE. lol
Well I have been back at this trying some changes on the 2.9 Whipple.
I upgraded the core so it had two -12 inlet fittings, the factory was -8 thread into the core with a -10 hose connected. With that factory hook up I had:
5 gals minute @ 10PSI water pressure.
6.8 gals @ 20 PSI
8.5 gals @ 30 PSI
9.5 gals @ 40 PSI
After revising the fittings:
5.8 gals @ 10 PSI
7.0 gals @ 20 PSI
Did not test above as it shows the core is the major flow restriction. I did run it again on the dyno at 20 PSI water pressure, the curve moved over a few seconds but it will not stop climbing inlet air temps still.
I just got the 4.0 sand rail kit and took that apart for water flow testing:
9.5 gallons @ 10 PSI
13 gallons @ 20 PSI
16 gallons @ 30 PSI
Much better with a similar core size, but still requires high PSI for flow and still falls short of my desired flow. I did notice the 2.9 core is made in China, the 4.0 is made in USA.
I reset the PSI @ 10 and put the two fittings from the intercooler together without the core in the test rig, just flowing the fittings. Fittings alone:
9.5 gallons @ 9.8 PSI
The fittings flow the same volume although I got a small drop in my set pressure, so it looks like the core flow could increase if the fittings can be made larger. Next week I will change the fittings out for something larger and retest.
Looking good for getting 1000hp engine that can run multiple laps on a road course!
Kurt
I upgraded the core so it had two -12 inlet fittings, the factory was -8 thread into the core with a -10 hose connected. With that factory hook up I had:
5 gals minute @ 10PSI water pressure.
6.8 gals @ 20 PSI
8.5 gals @ 30 PSI
9.5 gals @ 40 PSI
After revising the fittings:
5.8 gals @ 10 PSI
7.0 gals @ 20 PSI
Did not test above as it shows the core is the major flow restriction. I did run it again on the dyno at 20 PSI water pressure, the curve moved over a few seconds but it will not stop climbing inlet air temps still.
I just got the 4.0 sand rail kit and took that apart for water flow testing:
9.5 gallons @ 10 PSI
13 gallons @ 20 PSI
16 gallons @ 30 PSI
Much better with a similar core size, but still requires high PSI for flow and still falls short of my desired flow. I did notice the 2.9 core is made in China, the 4.0 is made in USA.
I reset the PSI @ 10 and put the two fittings from the intercooler together without the core in the test rig, just flowing the fittings. Fittings alone:
9.5 gallons @ 9.8 PSI
The fittings flow the same volume although I got a small drop in my set pressure, so it looks like the core flow could increase if the fittings can be made larger. Next week I will change the fittings out for something larger and retest.
Looking good for getting 1000hp engine that can run multiple laps on a road course!
Kurt
Kurt thanks for sharing the info. I've ran into some minor issues with my build, but from what I have seen just at idle my intercooler design setup is staying near close to ambient just at idle which I think is great for a PD blower.
For whats is worth I believe my intercooler is smaller than the one they put in the 2.9 kit, but I do have -12an inlet/outlet on opposite sides instead of directly beside each other. Should be driving mine this coming week, I will get a log with IAT and see where its at.
For whats is worth I believe my intercooler is smaller than the one they put in the 2.9 kit, but I do have -12an inlet/outlet on opposite sides instead of directly beside each other. Should be driving mine this coming week, I will get a log with IAT and see where its at.