INTERCOOLERS Thoughts on air v water
Tell the truth about why you guys are running meth kits. Its not for IAT reduction... its to crutch your fuel and add octane that you need.
Water is 14 times better than air at removing heat from aluminum. There will NEVER be an air to air thats as good as an air to water. You cant argue otherwise.
Water is 14 times better than air at removing heat from aluminum. There will NEVER be an air to air thats as good as an air to water. You cant argue otherwise.
TECH Fanatic
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 1,425
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I agree with this. This is what I am getting ready to try. Should have the a2a in the car in about a week or so. With E85 it should be plenty. And FYI No one said that a A2A was better than a A2W. If it is not needed and is over kill it does not need to be done. An a2a may be more than sufficient for his goals. If E85 is an option of fuel than I would think the A2A would be cheaper and plenty sufficient.
TECH Addict
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 2,866
Likes: 4
Tell the truth about why you guys are running meth kits. Its not for IAT reduction... its to crutch your fuel and add octane that you need.
Water is 14 times better than air at removing heat from aluminum. There will NEVER be an air to air thats as good as an air to water. You cant argue otherwise.
Water is 14 times better than air at removing heat from aluminum. There will NEVER be an air to air thats as good as an air to water. You cant argue otherwise.
If you plan on running any kind of HE then you are actaully running at 50% the effcieny of a air to air unit as the energy (heat) has to move twice - once from the air to the water and then from the water to the amibent air. yes you have greater themal capacity than an air to air unit, but the system recovery times will be higher also.
If air to water is soooo great i guess someone should be telling GM, Ford, Mitsubishi, Subaru, Nissan, BMW, Porsche, Ferarri, McLaren, VW/Audi (inc the their race cars) they know NOTHING about cars as thats what they use! In fact why dont you go tell Bell and Garrett that they should stop selling air to air intercoolers and stick to air to water setups!
I argee that air to water has its place, and that is in 1) race cars that can use iced water to get sub-ambient air temps / not require airflow for the IC & 2) cars where you cant get enough ambient airflow to the intercooler core (i.e. mid engined cars even though most manage it pretty well (look at ALMS cars)).
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Actually GM, Ford, Subaru and Porsche all use air to water in some applications. The GM laminova core units in the Caddys are pretty slick and integrated into the manifold (a2w if you are not familiar with laminova cores). Not sure about the others.
TECH Fanatic
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 1,027
Likes: 2
From: KS
So what do you do once the water is heat soaked?
I argee that air to water has its place, and that is in 1) race cars that can use iced water to get sub-ambient air temps / not require airflow for the IC & 2) cars where you cant get enough ambient airflow to the intercooler core (i.e. mid engined cars even though most manage it pretty well (look at ALMS cars)).
I argee that air to water has its place, and that is in 1) race cars that can use iced water to get sub-ambient air temps / not require airflow for the IC & 2) cars where you cant get enough ambient airflow to the intercooler core (i.e. mid engined cars even though most manage it pretty well (look at ALMS cars)).
I have this kit so I will speak from experience. Let's put it this way if you have a capable A2W system if the water in that system is the same temp as the air outside it WILL STILL cool the air BETTER than an A2A system. This is what guys are missing when those of us who understand these systems are saying they are more efficient. Then add that you can add ice to aid on top if that. You can never get colder than ambient air across an A2A system unless you are fogging freon across it.
Guys like you spouting this ignorance is what ruins a board like this for guys who come here for advice. No insult intended I am guessing you are repeating something you thought you learned. You just learned wrong. Not your fault.
this debate has and will never end.
people just don't understand how these systems work.
Like i have said before, its about a properly designed system which just doesn't seem to be the case with most setups you see.
OEM's use both setups, so they can't even decide which is "better". Look at your application, design the system using properly sized parts and let it eat
people just don't understand how these systems work.
Like i have said before, its about a properly designed system which just doesn't seem to be the case with most setups you see.
OEM's use both setups, so they can't even decide which is "better". Look at your application, design the system using properly sized parts and let it eat
A heat exchanger can be used like in the CBR Performance twin kit if you have seen it. If not look at it at modularturbo.com
I have this kit so I will speak from experience. Let's put it this way if you have a capable A2W system if the water in that system is the same temp as the air outside it WILL STILL cool the air BETTER than an A2A system. This is what guys are missing when those of us who understand these systems are saying they are more efficient. Then add that you can add ice to aid on top if that. You can never get colder than ambient air across an A2A system unless you are fogging freon across it.
Guys like you spouting this ignorance is what ruins a board like this for guys who come here for advice. No insult intended I am guessing you are repeating something you thought you learned. You just learned wrong. Not your fault.
I have this kit so I will speak from experience. Let's put it this way if you have a capable A2W system if the water in that system is the same temp as the air outside it WILL STILL cool the air BETTER than an A2A system. This is what guys are missing when those of us who understand these systems are saying they are more efficient. Then add that you can add ice to aid on top if that. You can never get colder than ambient air across an A2A system unless you are fogging freon across it.
Guys like you spouting this ignorance is what ruins a board like this for guys who come here for advice. No insult intended I am guessing you are repeating something you thought you learned. You just learned wrong. Not your fault.
TECH Regular
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 476
Likes: 2
So what do you do once the water is heat soaked?....
If you plan on running any kind of HE then you are actaully running at 50% the effcieny of a air to air unit as the energy (heat) has to move twice - once from the air to the water and then from the water to the amibent air. yes you have greater themal capacity than an air to air unit, but the system recovery times will be higher also.
If air to water is soooo great i guess someone should be telling GM, Ford, Mitsubishi, Subaru, Nissan, BMW, Porsche, Ferarri, McLaren, VW/Audi (inc the their race cars) they know NOTHING about cars as thats what they use! In fact why dont you go tell Bell and Garrett that they should stop selling air to air intercoolers and stick to air to water setups!
I argee that air to water has its place, and that is in 1) race cars that can use iced water to get sub-ambient air temps / not require airflow for the IC & 2) cars where you cant get enough ambient airflow to the intercooler core (i.e. mid engined cars even though most manage it pretty well (look at ALMS cars)).
If you plan on running any kind of HE then you are actaully running at 50% the effcieny of a air to air unit as the energy (heat) has to move twice - once from the air to the water and then from the water to the amibent air. yes you have greater themal capacity than an air to air unit, but the system recovery times will be higher also.
If air to water is soooo great i guess someone should be telling GM, Ford, Mitsubishi, Subaru, Nissan, BMW, Porsche, Ferarri, McLaren, VW/Audi (inc the their race cars) they know NOTHING about cars as thats what they use! In fact why dont you go tell Bell and Garrett that they should stop selling air to air intercoolers and stick to air to water setups!
I argee that air to water has its place, and that is in 1) race cars that can use iced water to get sub-ambient air temps / not require airflow for the IC & 2) cars where you cant get enough ambient airflow to the intercooler core (i.e. mid engined cars even though most manage it pretty well (look at ALMS cars)).
I have ran air to water intercooler setups that were tank only with no heat exchangers. Ive driven 600 miles on road trips driving NORMALLY and the water was never more than 20-30 degrees above ambient for the duration of the trip. And yes i monitored it. I had a temp sender in the tank.
Are you guys forgetting that the intercooler is a heat exchanger and it works both ways? If the water is warmer than the air flowing through the system... guess what.. the delta flow reverses and it starts cooling the water.
This isnt rocket science... just thermodynamics.
I am not arguing what is more efficient or not
All i know is an A2A has its place for alot of people
Is it simple? Yep
Is it lighter? Yep
Can it be fairly efficient with a good core? Yep
Nothing more, nothing less
If i had had hood clearance enough to incorporate a liquid core into the intake manifold i would be more than tempted
All i know is an A2A has its place for alot of people
Is it simple? Yep
Is it lighter? Yep
Can it be fairly efficient with a good core? Yep
Nothing more, nothing less
If i had had hood clearance enough to incorporate a liquid core into the intake manifold i would be more than tempted
FormerVendor
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 547
Likes: 1
This is for the A/W non believers, I'll put up a $1,000.00 bet on this to anyone that's got the ***** to go toe to toe with me on this.
I'll setup 2 out door cookers,"we call them crawfish burners where I'm from".
I'll set any A/A core on one cooker and a 6 gallon pot of water on the other.
Fire up the burners and I'll put my hands in the water and you put your hands on your best A/A core and let's see who chicken's out first!
You guys line up and I'll bring my suitcase to take the money home in.
I'll setup 2 out door cookers,"we call them crawfish burners where I'm from".
I'll set any A/A core on one cooker and a 6 gallon pot of water on the other.
Fire up the burners and I'll put my hands in the water and you put your hands on your best A/A core and let's see who chicken's out first!
You guys line up and I'll bring my suitcase to take the money home in.
O my god does it always have to go this way, theres pluses and minuses to both ways any idiot will figure that water can only get to 212 degrees b4 changing forms while the aluminum will just keep heating, i dont understand what this wld accomplish neither one of u will be able to hold money or a suitcase when ur dun proving ur point. i run A/A does that mean it is the best for every application hell no, on a small S/C or turbo build are they gonna gain enough to warrant the extra mechanical parts involved i dont think so its just my opinion, does a guy making 800rwhp+ need one and would benefit from one probably so. Thus each one having its place.
TECH Addict
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 2,866
Likes: 4
Are you not taking into account that a turbo only produces heat when its making boost? How much time in boost do you think you can manage on the street?
I have ran air to water intercooler setups that were tank only with no heat exchangers. Ive driven 600 miles on road trips driving NORMALLY and the water was never more than 20-30 degrees above ambient for the duration of the trip. And yes i monitored it. I had a temp sender in the tank.
Are you guys forgetting that the intercooler is a heat exchanger and it works both ways? If the water is warmer than the air flowing through the system... guess what.. the delta flow reverses and it starts cooling the water.
This isnt rocket science... just thermodynamics.
I have ran air to water intercooler setups that were tank only with no heat exchangers. Ive driven 600 miles on road trips driving NORMALLY and the water was never more than 20-30 degrees above ambient for the duration of the trip. And yes i monitored it. I had a temp sender in the tank.
Are you guys forgetting that the intercooler is a heat exchanger and it works both ways? If the water is warmer than the air flowing through the system... guess what.. the delta flow reverses and it starts cooling the water.
This isnt rocket science... just thermodynamics.
You may see higher in boost temps with an air to air but the recovery time is soo quick you can get straight back in the boost with no waiting around/driving waiting for the system to recover.