INTERCOOLERS Thoughts on air v water
03-09-2013, 02:13 PM
#41
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Your totally right, but how long dose it take to get your temps down once you have been in the boost and heated the water up? With no HE I can see it taking some time! How long dose it take for a air to air core to cool down? Few seconds maybe?
You may see higher in boost temps with an air to air but the recovery time is soo quick you can get straight back in the boost with no waiting around/driving waiting for the system to recover.
You may see higher in boost temps with an air to air but the recovery time is soo quick you can get straight back in the boost with no waiting around/driving waiting for the system to recover.
1) amount of water in reserve: it takes a LOT of energy to heat water. because the water isnt being used to cool an 800-1000 degree cylinder, the water temp will take a much larger amount of time to increase.
2) time in boost. the longer youre in boost, the more heat will be put into the water
3) where in teh efficiency range the turbos are: if the turbos are overworked, youll be producing much more heat
4) the efficiency of the A2W core itself
seems to me that normal driving will not really heat the water. on top of that, a heat exchanger would keep the water below ambient during normal driving. if an A2W system doesnt reach above ambient temps even with some spirited driving over lets say 100 continuous miles, why use an A2A with cost not being an issue?
second question is; what do air temps look like through an A2A vs an A2W? anyone have a good 20-30 mile log of the same setup with the one change being the intercooler?
one thing i would do is what modular turbo did and use a thermostat to turn the system on and off when needed. seems like an even better way to run that setup
03-09-2013, 02:27 PM
#42
depends on a couple things:
1) amount of water in reserve: it takes a LOT of energy to heat water. because the water isnt being used to cool an 800-1000 degree cylinder, the water temp will take a much larger amount of time to increase.
2) time in boost. the longer youre in boost, the more heat will be put into the water
3) where in teh efficiency range the turbos are: if the turbos are overworked, youll be producing much more heat
4) the efficiency of the A2W core itself
seems to me that normal driving will not really heat the water. on top of that, a heat exchanger would keep the water below ambient during normal driving. if an A2W system doesnt reach above ambient temps even with some spirited driving over lets say 100 continuous miles, why use an A2A with cost not being an issue?
second question is; what do air temps look like through an A2A vs an A2W? anyone have a good 20-30 mile log of the same setup with the one change being the intercooler?
one thing i would do is what modular turbo did and use a thermostat to turn the system on and off when needed. seems like an even better way to run that setup
1) amount of water in reserve: it takes a LOT of energy to heat water. because the water isnt being used to cool an 800-1000 degree cylinder, the water temp will take a much larger amount of time to increase.
2) time in boost. the longer youre in boost, the more heat will be put into the water
3) where in teh efficiency range the turbos are: if the turbos are overworked, youll be producing much more heat
4) the efficiency of the A2W core itself
seems to me that normal driving will not really heat the water. on top of that, a heat exchanger would keep the water below ambient during normal driving. if an A2W system doesnt reach above ambient temps even with some spirited driving over lets say 100 continuous miles, why use an A2A with cost not being an issue?
second question is; what do air temps look like through an A2A vs an A2W? anyone have a good 20-30 mile log of the same setup with the one change being the intercooler?
one thing i would do is what modular turbo did and use a thermostat to turn the system on and off when needed. seems like an even better way to run that setup
One point would be water would NEVER get below ambient without the use of a heat pump (AC unit) or some other means of active cooling.
As I said it's all down to the application. I have. Heard of TT vetts with A2A setup and meth running below ambient temps. Could they have got lower with a a2w system? Probably, but how many pulls before your heat soaked and have to cool down for 30min? With a2a it's pretty much instant!
Now getting a core suitable for over 1000rwhp in the car is another question! Obviously a2w units are much smaller. But then you still need to dissipate that energy somehow. Either back into the intake like liljohn, or back to the atmosphere with a HE. No HE will take longer to recover And with a he the recovery time will be dependent on the size of the HE.
03-09-2013, 03:55 PM
#43
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Some great points there! However I have heard of drag racing guys reporting a decent sized tank getting the water hot after only 10secodns! Obviously this is dependent on the application lie you mentioned, but I would guess you need a fair amount of water. Will try and do the maths when I'm on a pc and figure it out!
One point would be water would NEVER get below ambient without the use of a heat pump (AC unit) or some other means of active cooling.
As I said it's all down to the application. I have. Heard of TT vetts with A2A setup and meth running below ambient temps. Could they have got lower with a a2w system? Probably, but how many pulls before your heat soaked and have to cool down for 30min? With a2a it's pretty much instant!
Now getting a core suitable for over 1000rwhp in the car is another question! Obviously a2w units are much smaller. But then you still need to dissipate that energy somehow. Either back into the intake like liljohn, or back to the atmosphere with a HE. No HE will take longer to recover And with a he the recovery time will be dependent on the size of the HE.
One point would be water would NEVER get below ambient without the use of a heat pump (AC unit) or some other means of active cooling.
As I said it's all down to the application. I have. Heard of TT vetts with A2A setup and meth running below ambient temps. Could they have got lower with a a2w system? Probably, but how many pulls before your heat soaked and have to cool down for 30min? With a2a it's pretty much instant!
Now getting a core suitable for over 1000rwhp in the car is another question! Obviously a2w units are much smaller. But then you still need to dissipate that energy somehow. Either back into the intake like liljohn, or back to the atmosphere with a HE. No HE will take longer to recover And with a he the recovery time will be dependent on the size of the HE.
the g/sec those dragsters move hold a LOT more energy (heat) than the g/sec of a lowly street car. that 10 seconds hopefully includes more than just the run otherwise a 10 second run in boost i dont think should make the water that hot...lol.
i HAVE seen A/C intercoolers before. i think they are mostly a novelty. neat, but novelty.
i would think no HE would be a pretty inefficient way to go. you dont even need that large of an exchanger. like A2A airflow over the exchanger matters. duct the exchanger and get the hot air away from it ASAP.
03-10-2013, 04:23 PM
#47
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This debate rages on because people are claiming experiences with a2w that appear to defy the laws of thermodynamics. A properly designed system, perhaps with the a2w ic core and turbo inlets outside of the engine compartment (so limit heat input during non-boost conditions) should be able to keep the water at near ambient temps for the occasional boost condition, then a properly sized exchanger and water pump could beat an a2a on IAT(like less than 10deg above ambient). I have not seen this on any OEM or aftermarket SC kit yet(but haven't looked at recent OEM attempts), should be doable on custom setup in vehicles that can accomodate ideal placement of system components. Icing down the water or using some other method to get sub-ambient IATs is another nice benefit that a2a cannot touch.
03-12-2013, 10:33 AM
#48
i have this laying around if anyone is interested, mounts in the stock battery position on f body.
as per the thread:
a/w heavier, more components, more complicated, more expensive, works better!
a/a have to have a place to mount it that gets air, more relative to outside temp
i'll also second that an a/w doesn't 'heat soak' the water stays relatively cool. street driving my old t/a i didn't have a heat exchanger on it and never even ran the pump unless i was about to blast somebody.
as per the thread:
a/w heavier, more components, more complicated, more expensive, works better!
a/a have to have a place to mount it that gets air, more relative to outside temp
i'll also second that an a/w doesn't 'heat soak' the water stays relatively cool. street driving my old t/a i didn't have a heat exchanger on it and never even ran the pump unless i was about to blast somebody.
03-12-2013, 10:05 PM
#49
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i have this laying around if anyone is interested, mounts in the stock battery position on f body.
as per the thread:
a/w heavier, more components, more complicated, more expensive, works better!
a/a have to have a place to mount it that gets air, more relative to outside temp
i'll also second that an a/w doesn't 'heat soak' the water stays relatively cool. street driving my old t/a i didn't have a heat exchanger on it and never even ran the pump unless i was about to blast somebody.
as per the thread:
a/w heavier, more components, more complicated, more expensive, works better!
a/a have to have a place to mount it that gets air, more relative to outside temp
i'll also second that an a/w doesn't 'heat soak' the water stays relatively cool. street driving my old t/a i didn't have a heat exchanger on it and never even ran the pump unless i was about to blast somebody.
03-15-2013, 10:52 PM
#51
Don't buy this setup, it is garbage. If you what to have a bad experience
with a A/W system this will be a good start.
The tank isn't big enough and it's under the hood so the water temps will be 200+. Ask him why he didn't run it on that record setting car he sold!
I know it seams that I'm kicking the LS1tech poster boy in the ***** in public but most of you guys don't know enough about this stuff to know any better.
What I mean is you will buy this "thing" and the next A/W vs A/A thread you will be in there with your "first hand experience" of how they are junk and the $100.00 CX racing A/A crushed that A/W system you had.
I'm trying to save you. Think of it like a buddy telling you that the girl
that you just met at the bar has AIDS, but she is so hot, walk away!
Mighty Mouse please don't be mad at me, I speak the truth.
Do these guys a favor, sell it for scrap and buy a 6 pack with the money.
The world will be a better place.
with a A/W system this will be a good start.
The tank isn't big enough and it's under the hood so the water temps will be 200+. Ask him why he didn't run it on that record setting car he sold!
I know it seams that I'm kicking the LS1tech poster boy in the ***** in public but most of you guys don't know enough about this stuff to know any better.
What I mean is you will buy this "thing" and the next A/W vs A/A thread you will be in there with your "first hand experience" of how they are junk and the $100.00 CX racing A/A crushed that A/W system you had.
I'm trying to save you. Think of it like a buddy telling you that the girl
that you just met at the bar has AIDS, but she is so hot, walk away!
Mighty Mouse please don't be mad at me, I speak the truth.
Do these guys a favor, sell it for scrap and buy a 6 pack with the money.
The world will be a better place.
Last edited by Chris@CBR; 03-15-2013 at 10:59 PM.
03-16-2013, 12:26 AM
#52
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Don't buy this setup, it is garbage. If you what to have a bad experience
with a A/W system this will be a good start.
The tank isn't big enough and it's under the hood so the water temps will be 200+. Ask him why he didn't run it on that record setting car he sold!
I know it seams that I'm kicking the LS1tech poster boy in the ***** in public but most of you guys don't know enough about this stuff to know any better.
What I mean is you will buy this "thing" and the next A/W vs A/A thread you will be in there with your "first hand experience" of how they are junk and the $100.00 CX racing A/A crushed that A/W system you had.
I'm trying to save you. Think of it like a buddy telling you that the girl
that you just met at the bar has AIDS, but she is so hot, walk away!
Mighty Mouse please don't be mad at me, I speak the truth.
Do these guys a favor, sell it for scrap and buy a 6 pack with the money.
The world will be a better place.
with a A/W system this will be a good start.
The tank isn't big enough and it's under the hood so the water temps will be 200+. Ask him why he didn't run it on that record setting car he sold!
I know it seams that I'm kicking the LS1tech poster boy in the ***** in public but most of you guys don't know enough about this stuff to know any better.
What I mean is you will buy this "thing" and the next A/W vs A/A thread you will be in there with your "first hand experience" of how they are junk and the $100.00 CX racing A/A crushed that A/W system you had.
I'm trying to save you. Think of it like a buddy telling you that the girl
that you just met at the bar has AIDS, but she is so hot, walk away!
Mighty Mouse please don't be mad at me, I speak the truth.
Do these guys a favor, sell it for scrap and buy a 6 pack with the money.
The world will be a better place.
03-16-2013, 09:20 AM
#54
It needs to hold enough water to be used as a stand buy cooler for a nuclear reactor.
MM had a 8 sec street car ask him why he didn't run it with ice at the track.
MM I have a lot respect for you and what you have done with the cars you have built, I am not trying to make you look bad, really.
In closing, one way to look at it is you can trow a pack of hot dogs in the tank and in 10sec's or less you can have lunch ready for your crew.
03-16-2013, 10:31 AM
#56
I'll have to take some more pictures than what I have. I just looked and I don't have enough to make a case worthy of the experts here who will judge it. Like the guys who said this circulation pump used wouldn't be enough. 
The experts on here thought it needed the pump off a fire engine!
The experts on here thought it needed the pump off a fire engine!
03-16-2013, 11:30 AM
#57
Little confused here so I'll just stick to some facts about the tank set up I posted as a couple replies up were short of them.
I never said it was sliced bread I said I have it laying around if anyone is interested.
See below examples of my hot dog cooking garbage in action.
1.
this is 2006 when the tank was in my 6 speed formula
http://www.streetfire.net/video/mightymouse-2-dyno_174574.htm
2.
the next year same set up on my t/a. iced once BEFORE 30 mile cruise not touched after that or before any of the following 3 back to back passes. (was a 10.1ET 3 lap average see HERE) I was roll bar rule limited to 10.0.
last line reads:
"Childress finished the ride in 2007, and last October drove the car 1,600 miles round trip to the LSX shootout, taking home the LSX true street crown on Saturday and picking up a few awards in the car show on Sunday.
3.
my best runs with this water tank on board. ice in for every pass and turned up
http://www.streetfire.net/video/mm3-90-156-full-street_174756.htm
and fyi this is the set up in the car today.
http://www.streetfire.net/video/intercooler-tank_186951.htm
True street class has a 3 round closed hood policy and after the 30 mile cruise I could not add ice to my tank. (because it was under the hood). I made improvements for the following years. 1. more volume 2. stored in a cooler location 3. could ice it before my 3 rounds. 4. bigger pump 5. better container material.
The original hood mounted alum. tank has no issue driving around down out of boost, has no issue icing up for a single pass type situation on a friday night etc. The volume/placement was a problem for the type of racing I got into 5+ years after having it.
Chris, no worries, you definitely didn't make me look bad.
I never said it was sliced bread I said I have it laying around if anyone is interested.
See below examples of my hot dog cooking garbage in action.
1.
this is 2006 when the tank was in my 6 speed formula
http://www.streetfire.net/video/mightymouse-2-dyno_174574.htm
2.
the next year same set up on my t/a. iced once BEFORE 30 mile cruise not touched after that or before any of the following 3 back to back passes. (was a 10.1ET 3 lap average see HERE) I was roll bar rule limited to 10.0.
last line reads:
"Childress finished the ride in 2007, and last October drove the car 1,600 miles round trip to the LSX shootout, taking home the LSX true street crown on Saturday and picking up a few awards in the car show on Sunday.
3.
my best runs with this water tank on board. ice in for every pass and turned up
http://www.streetfire.net/video/mm3-90-156-full-street_174756.htm
and fyi this is the set up in the car today.
http://www.streetfire.net/video/intercooler-tank_186951.htm
True street class has a 3 round closed hood policy and after the 30 mile cruise I could not add ice to my tank. (because it was under the hood). I made improvements for the following years. 1. more volume 2. stored in a cooler location 3. could ice it before my 3 rounds. 4. bigger pump 5. better container material.
The original hood mounted alum. tank has no issue driving around down out of boost, has no issue icing up for a single pass type situation on a friday night etc. The volume/placement was a problem for the type of racing I got into 5+ years after having it.
Chris, no worries, you definitely didn't make me look bad.
