Dual Fuel on the fly(87 and e85) on stock pcm's!
02-21-2013, 02:17 PM
#42
TECH Apprentice
I can add that the "on the fly" part is kind of nice to have at times.
But why would you carry around that big of a cell for the secondary system. Ours is 4 gallons,and I think it is too big. I filled my secondary cell(E85) before we left for DragWeek last year,and didn't put in more until the third track, and then I had only used alittle over half of the tank. On those runs(around 700 rwhp) we only used about 1/3rd of a gallon per 1/4 mile run. Mike's dual fuel setup we use about half a gallon each 1/4 mile pass,and that is around 900 rwhp.(I didn't think about till now, that is 2 gallons per Mile
) Aleast we are a "GREEN" gas hog, with it being E85....
That dual fuel would have been alot easier, to tune and install, if you guys had put a Megasquirt on there.
We don't want to run the BIG secondary fuel system all the time, so we tested different methods of turning it on that would not take away from the secondaries "readyness"
We have the our second pump come on at 25% throttle,and 85 KPA(the fuel switches at 115 kpa), and once triggered it doesn't shut off untill those conditions are NOT met for atleast 5 seconds. But that is one thing the squirt can easily do that the factory computers can't.
Anybody thinking about doing dual fuel, would be better off looking into the Megasquirt to control it. There are lot more people in that community willing to share their knowledge(Like Denmah,Me,and Alkynova) No secret squirrel stuff there...
But, both them and I have, worked many hours to figure this stuff out, but then share it. Look the two dual fuel builds we have on here, and on MSextra.com. Everything spelled out and even files sent to who ever wanted them.
I know it wouldn't be all that difficult to use the two ecms together like that if,At least one of them was Speed Density(maybe both).But you would need to manage your signals, well. All but the IAT,and MAT could be shared signals. With a Master ECM providing power and ground to the sensors,and then just a slave ecm just tapping signals and maybe some sensor grounds need to be married also.
But then the HP tuners, or EFI live, credits for programming are now doubled. and to make adjustments you would have to switch back and forth between the two ecms. What a nightmare. Factory computers are already a pain in the ***(look at Denmah's recent troubles), and now you are using two of them together, to do something easily done buy one Megasquirt.
Now granted if you are trying to market it as being difficult,and people should buy a system from you to make it simple, then the factory ECM route is the best way to make it complicated.
But why would you carry around that big of a cell for the secondary system. Ours is 4 gallons,and I think it is too big. I filled my secondary cell(E85) before we left for DragWeek last year,and didn't put in more until the third track, and then I had only used alittle over half of the tank. On those runs(around 700 rwhp) we only used about 1/3rd of a gallon per 1/4 mile run. Mike's dual fuel setup we use about half a gallon each 1/4 mile pass,and that is around 900 rwhp.(I didn't think about till now, that is 2 gallons per Mile
) Aleast we are a "GREEN" gas hog, with it being E85....That dual fuel would have been alot easier, to tune and install, if you guys had put a Megasquirt on there.
We don't want to run the BIG secondary fuel system all the time, so we tested different methods of turning it on that would not take away from the secondaries "readyness"
We have the our second pump come on at 25% throttle,and 85 KPA(the fuel switches at 115 kpa), and once triggered it doesn't shut off untill those conditions are NOT met for atleast 5 seconds. But that is one thing the squirt can easily do that the factory computers can't.
Anybody thinking about doing dual fuel, would be better off looking into the Megasquirt to control it. There are lot more people in that community willing to share their knowledge(Like Denmah,Me,and Alkynova) No secret squirrel stuff there...
But, both them and I have, worked many hours to figure this stuff out, but then share it. Look the two dual fuel builds we have on here, and on MSextra.com. Everything spelled out and even files sent to who ever wanted them.
I know it wouldn't be all that difficult to use the two ecms together like that if,At least one of them was Speed Density(maybe both).But you would need to manage your signals, well. All but the IAT,and MAT could be shared signals. With a Master ECM providing power and ground to the sensors,and then just a slave ecm just tapping signals and maybe some sensor grounds need to be married also.
But then the HP tuners, or EFI live, credits for programming are now doubled. and to make adjustments you would have to switch back and forth between the two ecms. What a nightmare. Factory computers are already a pain in the ***(look at Denmah's recent troubles), and now you are using two of them together, to do something easily done buy one Megasquirt.
Now granted if you are trying to market it as being difficult,and people should buy a system from you to make it simple, then the factory ECM route is the best way to make it complicated.
02-21-2013, 03:40 PM
#43
Atomic 6,
agreed. I think Megasquirt would be a little bit better way to implement it. I was thinking about adding a MS1 to my holley for the dual injectors(not dual fuel). I think the main box can handle accel enrichment and startup enrichment so really all the ms would need to see would be MAP and MAT.
by the way,, I personally appreciate you and denmah et al being so open with mods and setups etc.
agreed. I think Megasquirt would be a little bit better way to implement it. I was thinking about adding a MS1 to my holley for the dual injectors(not dual fuel). I think the main box can handle accel enrichment and startup enrichment so really all the ms would need to see would be MAP and MAT.
by the way,, I personally appreciate you and denmah et al being so open with mods and setups etc.
02-21-2013, 05:27 PM
#45
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what happens if you try to run 8 small meth nozzles into the intake runners instead of E85/race gas and this way will be able to progressively adjust spray thus AFR based on boost/RPM. Is something like this feasible?
I know someone who maxed out his stock pump and ran a NOS plate with nozzles and a hobbs switch connected to an external fuel pump, so when he gets into the throttle the external pump kicks in and starts spraying fuel at the throttle body, that was his cheap fuel system and as funny as it sounds its been working for quite some time lol.
I know someone who maxed out his stock pump and ran a NOS plate with nozzles and a hobbs switch connected to an external fuel pump, so when he gets into the throttle the external pump kicks in and starts spraying fuel at the throttle body, that was his cheap fuel system and as funny as it sounds its been working for quite some time lol.
02-22-2013, 06:42 AM
#48
We had the stock pcm's, extra connectors, and everything laying around so for us it was cheaper than buying MS.
Does the MS have 2 fuel tables, I didn't think it did, but could be wrong, if it does then that would be great. We talked about using it before, but being as we already had everything for stock pcm's we made that work. We have another build soon using a standalone ecu for 87/e85.
As far as the fuel cell, its less than 1.5lbs of extra weight carried per gallon of fuel capacity, so making it 12 gallons vs 4 is only another 12lbs of weight added to the car if we only wanted to run a few gallons in it isn't that big of a deal. We can probably make as many hits in one night as you did on all of drag week, we built it bigger as so not having to worry about getting e85 that often at all, we are talking about a car that will get driven A LOT and lots of wot blasts.
Does the MS have 2 fuel tables, I didn't think it did, but could be wrong, if it does then that would be great. We talked about using it before, but being as we already had everything for stock pcm's we made that work. We have another build soon using a standalone ecu for 87/e85.
As far as the fuel cell, its less than 1.5lbs of extra weight carried per gallon of fuel capacity, so making it 12 gallons vs 4 is only another 12lbs of weight added to the car if we only wanted to run a few gallons in it isn't that big of a deal. We can probably make as many hits in one night as you did on all of drag week, we built it bigger as so not having to worry about getting e85 that often at all, we are talking about a car that will get driven A LOT and lots of wot blasts.
Last edited by skinnies; 02-22-2013 at 07:14 AM.
02-22-2013, 09:00 AM
#49
After looking into it more...MS won't work my factory gauge cluster so the two stock pcms would be the way to go for anyone that needs to keep those features! Great job skinnies and Max I take it you guys have a gauge for the fuel cell as well so you can monitor that...I'm super jelly of this...I need to do a fuel system anyway but my motor is low compression so I won't see the benefits of e85 really I don't believe...the 87 would be sweet instead of running 93 all the time though...
02-22-2013, 09:15 AM
#50
02-22-2013, 09:23 AM
#51
After looking into it more...MS won't work my factory gauge cluster so the two stock pcms would be the way to go for anyone that needs to keep those features! Great job skinnies and Max I take it you guys have a gauge for the fuel cell as well so you can monitor that...I'm super jelly of this...I need to do a fuel system anyway but my motor is low compression so I won't see the benefits of e85 really I don't believe...the 87 would be sweet instead of running 93 all the time though...
02-22-2013, 10:09 AM
#54
I could be wrong but a few years ago I though I read and saw pictures of Atomic6 and parish8 doing duel fuel with 16 injectors on a victor jr. I though they were phasing in methanol though. Maybe Atomic6 could confirm this.
Last edited by tennerv8; 02-22-2013 at 10:17 AM.
02-22-2013, 10:52 AM
#55
Good idea, I like this. Actually looks pretty simple. Are you using a basic PLC to control the switching? Or a simple board with multiple relays? This would be pretty cool to have controlled by like a boost controller.
Last edited by pwrtrip75; 02-22-2013 at 11:17 AM.
02-22-2013, 11:01 AM
#56
TECH Apprentice
Yes, we have been running 20 injectors on the wagon(8 gas + 12 E85), and 18 on Mike's mustang(8 gas + 10 E85) They both had Methanol as the secondary fuel at first, but that fuel is too harsh on everthing we had, or wanted to use in the fuel system, and the volume of fuel required is a ton, so we switched to E85, like I had been running in my brothers Mustang,and a couple of Turbo Buicks. Much easier to deal with E85.
02-22-2013, 12:01 PM
#58
Another nice feature is getting to idle/cruise on small injectors, this isn't a big deal until you start looking at having to run bigger than 160lb injectors and idle quality isn't as well. The system was built for something in the 1300+ rwhp range, just for now we are running the JY 5.3 and 76mm.
02-25-2013, 09:10 PM
#60
What I had been plannin on doing was running the MS for fueling engine manigment purposes and leaving the PCM in for all the OBD II state inspection/ gauge cluster / VATS bla bla bla. I agree, the MS from all the going back and forth would be the easier route to take care of this problem.
My question to you guys, did yall get rid of the IC or running that ONTOP of the E ?
My question to you guys, did yall get rid of the IC or running that ONTOP of the E ?