does anyone sell a 4inch IC core?
TECH Enthusiast
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 728
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Besides, I would trust the opinion of someone who manufactures thousands of different types of some of the highest quality intercoolers on the market.
Btw, here's some math for you.
A typical bar and plate intercooler has a 40% flow rate across the flow area. So a 3" thick horizontal flow intercooler thats 12 inches tall would have (3x12)x.4=14.4 square inches of flow area. Since a 3" x 12" horizontal is pretty much a worst case scenario I'd have to agree its not enough flow. A 4.5" thick x 12" horizontal has (4.5x12)x.4=21.6 square inches.
For comparison, a 4" inlet or outlet pipe has (2x2)x3.14=12.56 square inches of low.
Most large verticals, even ebay specials, have 25+ square inches of flow area. It is indeed hard for any horizontal to keep up with a vertical in terms of flow.
But like I was saying before, if the core is large enough to outflow your setup, it really isn't going to matter whether its horizontal or vertical, or how much more you increase the flow area, it isn't going to have much effect. If your core outflows your setup, you could double the size of it and it would only gain a few % efficiency.
I understand your argument for vertical vs horizontal, but if the horizontal is still big enough to give you more than enough flow, switching to a vertical will have little effect. This is the argument NicD has been trying to make.
His graph is a generalization. He doesn't indicate exact turbulator densities, only shows the effect that low and high density turbulators have on an intercoolers flow. For all we know the graph could be nearly zero density on one end and 50% density on the other.
Besides, I would trust the opinion of someone who manufactures thousands of different types of some of the highest quality intercoolers on the market.
I never said horizontal wasn't a poor choice. No matter how you do the math, a typical horizontal has worse flow than a vertical.
Btw, here's some math for you.
A typical bar and plate intercooler has a 40% flow rate across the flow area. So a 3" thick horizontal flow intercooler thats 12 inches tall would have (3x12)x.4=14.4 square inches of flow area. Since a 3" x 12" horizontal is pretty much a worst case scenario I'd have to agree its not enough flow. A 4.5" thick x 12" horizontal has (4.5x12)x.4=21.6 square inches.
For comparison, a 4" inlet or outlet pipe has (2x2)x3.14=12.56 square inches of low.
Most large verticals, even ebay specials, have 25+ square inches of flow area. It is indeed hard for any horizontal to keep up with a vertical in terms of flow.
But like I was saying before, if the core is large enough to outflow your setup, it really isn't going to matter whether its horizontal or vertical, or how much more you increase the flow area, it isn't going to have much effect. If your core outflows your setup, you could double the size of it and it would only gain a few % efficiency.
I understand your argument for vertical vs horizontal, but if the horizontal is still big enough to give you more than enough flow, switching to a vertical will have little effect. This is the argument NicD has been trying to make.
Besides, I would trust the opinion of someone who manufactures thousands of different types of some of the highest quality intercoolers on the market.
I never said horizontal wasn't a poor choice. No matter how you do the math, a typical horizontal has worse flow than a vertical.
Btw, here's some math for you.
A typical bar and plate intercooler has a 40% flow rate across the flow area. So a 3" thick horizontal flow intercooler thats 12 inches tall would have (3x12)x.4=14.4 square inches of flow area. Since a 3" x 12" horizontal is pretty much a worst case scenario I'd have to agree its not enough flow. A 4.5" thick x 12" horizontal has (4.5x12)x.4=21.6 square inches.
For comparison, a 4" inlet or outlet pipe has (2x2)x3.14=12.56 square inches of low.
Most large verticals, even ebay specials, have 25+ square inches of flow area. It is indeed hard for any horizontal to keep up with a vertical in terms of flow.
But like I was saying before, if the core is large enough to outflow your setup, it really isn't going to matter whether its horizontal or vertical, or how much more you increase the flow area, it isn't going to have much effect. If your core outflows your setup, you could double the size of it and it would only gain a few % efficiency.
I understand your argument for vertical vs horizontal, but if the horizontal is still big enough to give you more than enough flow, switching to a vertical will have little effect. This is the argument NicD has been trying to make.
Measure the actual cores once... not a generalization
Both the CX core and treastone had roughly a .23" charge row height. 16 rows. Do the math
Yes exactly, you would trust the opinion of someone who builds many different high quality cores
So look at the table again. I wasn't eluding to the table about tubulator density. I was for flow area vs flow volume
In his expert opinion as you just stated. A 370" motor needs in the area of 30 square inches flow area to satisfy the flow
Agree?
.
To the OP. So you know
I had a 3" thick CX racing a2a. I had decent pressure drop at only 15psi of boost. And the thermal efficiency was meh. (turbulator density very not dense at all)
So I bought a big tread stone 1245, nice big end tanks and flow diverters.
It acted the exact same way as my old CX on the blower. Just slightly better
Tried and tried to make a big vertical flow fit but it wasn't going to happen. So I ended up going to a small a2w
Can make fun of my vid here but it doesn't lie. The blower is moving perhaps half or a little more of what our 370s do
That is my old CX core. Wide open hardly any turbulator density... vs small a2w
30sq inches for the a2w.. 11 for the a2a
Horizontal a2a suxks - YouTube
.
I had a 3" thick CX racing a2a. I had decent pressure drop at only 15psi of boost. And the thermal efficiency was meh. (turbulator density very not dense at all)
So I bought a big tread stone 1245, nice big end tanks and flow diverters.
It acted the exact same way as my old CX on the blower. Just slightly better
Tried and tried to make a big vertical flow fit but it wasn't going to happen. So I ended up going to a small a2w
Can make fun of my vid here but it doesn't lie. The blower is moving perhaps half or a little more of what our 370s do
That is my old CX core. Wide open hardly any turbulator density... vs small a2w
30sq inches for the a2w.. 11 for the a2a
Horizontal a2a suxks - YouTube
.
Well it is pretty funny thinking that your leaf blower video means anything at all. At least my dual gauges and intake air temp sensor show something to backup what I'm saying. I have nothing to benefit what so ever by making false claims, I don't sell intercoolers. I'm just sharing data so sorry I didn't make a video showing the differences. Besides most research that I do now a days is only shared between the 5 companies I contract in to and direct customers. I couldn't care less what you believe but when you are making claims that it's worthless to go bigger on a horizontal flow intercooler and I have data that says otherwise, well...
Where is the data again?
You are right the blower vid shows nothing
Start blocking the blower off with your hand and notice what happens... it isn't rocket science
Run that blower through my complete new setup and rpm still doesn't budge
Be sure to let corky know he better get shig straight
You are right the blower vid shows nothing
Start blocking the blower off with your hand and notice what happens... it isn't rocket science
Run that blower through my complete new setup and rpm still doesn't budge
Be sure to let corky know he better get shig straight
Last edited by rotary1307cc; May 4, 2013 at 04:20 PM.
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Verdad Gallardo I could take screencaps of the log files showing the climb in intake air temp and I don't have pictures of the handwritten notes from back when I did this test as a direct back to back. Even if I did you could just say that I made it up and posted up random graphs and notes to suit what I am saying.
I have an idea, next time you get a customer that comes in with a 3" ebay core intercooler you can do your own back to back testing when you switch it out to a larger core IC and then you will have some "data" for yourself to share. Until then feel free to continue to speculate while I will just share my testing results that have already been done on this exact subject.
Would you feel better if I took a picture of the ebay core 3" along with the treadstone sitting in my garage currently?
I have an idea, next time you get a customer that comes in with a 3" ebay core intercooler you can do your own back to back testing when you switch it out to a larger core IC and then you will have some "data" for yourself to share. Until then feel free to continue to speculate while I will just share my testing results that have already been done on this exact subject.
Would you feel better if I took a picture of the ebay core 3" along with the treadstone sitting in my garage currently?
I could take screencaps of the log files showing the climb in intake air temp and I don't have pictures of the handwritten notes from back when I did this test as a direct back to back. Even if I did you could just say that I made it up and posted up random graphs and notes to suit what I am saying.
I have an idea, next time you get a customer that comes in with a 3" ebay core intercooler you can do your own back to back testing when you switch it out to a larger core IC and then you will have some "data" for yourself to share. Until then feel free to continue to speculate while I will just share my testing results that have already been done on this exact subject.
Would you feel better if I took a picture of the ebay core 3" along with the treadstone sitting in my garage currently?
I have an idea, next time you get a customer that comes in with a 3" ebay core intercooler you can do your own back to back testing when you switch it out to a larger core IC and then you will have some "data" for yourself to share. Until then feel free to continue to speculate while I will just share my testing results that have already been done on this exact subject.
Would you feel better if I took a picture of the ebay core 3" along with the treadstone sitting in my garage currently?
If he is going through the work to change it why not persue something closer to ideal?
Yes let's see a picture of the old IC. Down the through the charge tubes
Yes exactly..... that is one of the horrible extruded tube cores I mentioned....
I would hope you saw a vast improvement over that
My buddy has a 1000hp 370/s480 and he was seeing 4-5psi of drop in his car at 22psi
With a CX 4" bar n plate core. Looks identical in build to the treastone and tubulator design minus the treastone having better end tanks. Nothing like a Garrett design
Swapped to a a2w and you can quests what the results where
I would hope you saw a vast improvement over that
My buddy has a 1000hp 370/s480 and he was seeing 4-5psi of drop in his car at 22psi
With a CX 4" bar n plate core. Looks identical in build to the treastone and tubulator design minus the treastone having better end tanks. Nothing like a Garrett design
Swapped to a a2w and you can quests what the results where
Last edited by rotary1307cc; May 4, 2013 at 04:59 PM.
Yes exactly..... that is one of the horrible extruded tube cores I mentioned....
I would hope you saw a vast improvement over that
My buddy has a 1000hp 370/s480 and he was seeing 4-5psi of drop in his car at 22psi
With a CX 4" bar n plate core. Looks identical in build to the treastone and tubulator design minus the treastone having better end tanks. Nothing like a Garrett design
Swapped to a a2w and you can quests what the results where
I would hope you saw a vast improvement over that
My buddy has a 1000hp 370/s480 and he was seeing 4-5psi of drop in his car at 22psi
With a CX 4" bar n plate core. Looks identical in build to the treastone and tubulator design minus the treastone having better end tanks. Nothing like a Garrett design
Swapped to a a2w and you can quests what the results where
LOL you are acting like I don't know what the difference was between the cores. The op said he has a cheap ebay 3" core intercooler which is exactly what mine was and I shared good data doing the exact swap he is talking about doing. There are most definitely good improvements to be had by doing the simple swap to a better thicker core IC without changing to a vertical flow intercooler and changing the associated charge piping. I know I've mentioned this before but I know what a good a2w setup is capable of, I have one on my Camaro and it's really nice. Beyond that I think I'm done bothering with this pissing match as I've given the OP the information from when I did exactly what he is asking about doing.
If he has a CX type 4" core and you think going to the 4.5" treastone will do ****. You are nuts....
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Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 910
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From: Dubai
perhaps I don't want any pressure drop associated to flow restriction
Can I see some data logs to back your statement? We are talking v8 here not not some 3 liter at 1khp moving 400cfm
You don't get it do you. The eBay core he has has zero tubulator density as it is. So where is his pressure drop coming from? Enlighten me
Yes it has **** for thermal efficiency but the "shitty core" won't be causing the pressure drop
Can I see some data logs to back your statement? We are talking v8 here not not some 3 liter at 1khp moving 400cfm
You don't get it do you. The eBay core he has has zero tubulator density as it is. So where is his pressure drop coming from? Enlighten me
Yes it has **** for thermal efficiency but the "shitty core" won't be causing the pressure drop
All else compensated for the different motors, to make a 1000HP you will have to flow "almost" the same amount of CFM, regardless what the engine size is.
Last edited by ayousef; May 5, 2013 at 08:28 AM.
CFM or Cubic feet per minute is a time unit measure of airflow, airflow is what generates horsepower SO you cannot be flowing 400CFM at 1000hp on a small motor and 1000CFM at 1000hp on a bigger motor.
All else compensated for the different motors, to make a 1000HP you will have to flow "almost" the same amount of CFM, regardless what the engine size is.
All else compensated for the different motors, to make a 1000HP you will have to flow "almost" the same amount of CFM, regardless what the engine size is.
And wonder why tech has such horrible advice given
NicD is not an idiot we are having a discussion, you are an idiot although
Ponder your dumbass post for a moment
Do you realize an engine is a positive displacement pump?
Flow volume is relatively fixed and tied to the motors, displacement, rpm, VE.
Ever heard of mass flow?
The mass flow varies through the charge pipes with different boost levels..... the flow volume does not
Air flow volume into the turbos will be similar between the two 1khp motors.... air flow volume through the charge pipes/intercooeler... ahhhhh no
.
Last edited by rotary1307cc; May 5, 2013 at 09:15 AM.