lt1carman

No way that treadstone is rated at 1400 cfm, Garret or bell cores only way to go for blower cars IMHO, btw I'll never buy another treadstone at our power level not worth the power loss for a few hundred more or the same if you go just buy a used procharger one of e-bay.

someone tag Timmy two stages he can tell you the diff between the treadstone vs the garret cored procharger

That treadstone was a lesson to my wallet, dyno time tunning pipping and the cooler itself ( over a g ) they should really update there advertising to not mislead people. Ooohhh and there claim of 2.5 psi loss is bs

SPRAYED 01

iTrader: (22)

Damn I was going to do a threadstone to help with loosing 5psi threw my ebay ic.

Now Im thinking all or nothing and to just spend the big bucks.

Vetal

iTrader: (3)

at what power level have you got +50whp?

Orr89rocz

iTrader: (13)

I wouldnt expect any intercooler to do spectacular for long pulls in boost. It would have to be ginormous.
Aw works fine as long as the water tank is big. Drag race 3-5 gallons is ok enough. Mile or landspeed stuff use huge tanks.


Fyi for sake of the thread and treadstone. I used the 25x9x3.5" thick twin turbo intercooler. 2.5" inlet and 3" outlet to tb. On single dyno pull, 45 deg starting temps in 40 deg ambient. Saw 48 deg rise to 93 on a quick third gear pull on 24.5 psi. 1009 whp sae
At the track starting at 80-85 deg in 45-50 deg ambient, i saw over 170 deg at end of a 8.9 sec run on 24 psi.

So its likely too small for a true 1300 hp rating. 800 hp its fine. Street short pulls it is fine.
Now i have cx racing aw units and 6 gallon cell with ice water. 55-60 deg water temps, keeps air temps to 30 deg rise over 8.2-8.5 secs on 28-30 psi in 60-70 deg ambient air. Not bad for cheap coolers

stevieturbo

I dont expect an intercooler to be spectacular either. But I expect it to do its job. If that's cooling for long pulls then that's what it has to do.

WTF use is an intercooler if it can only manage heat for a few seconds ? Not all forms of racing last for such a short period of time.

Any cooling system needs to be built right, doesnt matter whether it's charge cooling, engine cooling, oil cooling, tranny cooling etc.

if it cant cope with the application it is used in, then it needs improved, simple as that

The Alchemist

iTrader: (19)

As far as managing temps, I spray water/meoh into the blower, as well as post intercooler, so the intercooler is getting help in that category.

My concern is with airflow. Below is my data log from my dyno pull, and if you look at the purple line in the 4th table, it's my boost, and you can see it flattens out around 5000rpm, which I think is the intercooler not flowing enough air.


You can see my IAT's stayed pretty solid, thanks in part to the meoh/water injection. I'm just wondering if the $400 investment into a Treadstone intercooler will get me 2-3 more psi of boost, which would be a good 30-50 rwhp or more. I'm not looking to drop over a grand on an intercooler, so while I know the Bell are great, it's just not a worthwhile investment for me.

The car made 862rwhp at the 14.5 degrees of timing, so I'm happy with that for a fun street car, but maybe if the intercooler wasn't a restriction, it would have been a 9xx.

stevieturbo

IMO the flatline could also be belt slip.

Get a couple of cheap gauges and test the IC, maybe it is fine at the minute.

lt1carman

I was at 700 ish rwhp when I picked up 50rwhp and 100 rwtq ( I truly think if I had better heads I would have picked up more)

I'll never run another treadstone again I loved mine so much I threw it in the trash. I think there fine on lower power cars but a blower car has to work extra hard and will give up power with out a properly speced intercooler.

You gotta pay to play and I hated having to redo everything twice was a waste of time wish I just bite the bullet from the beginning.

You might spend 400 bucks and gain nothing vs getting a good cooler and you know you will pick power for sure.

Power dropping off could also be a number of other things from headers, cam, valve springs, belt slip etc etc

with the procharger cooler I only saw about 2.5 psi loss and 140 intake temps. Well worth the 1200 bucks when you consider how much it can cost per dollar elese where to pick up that kind of power and something the dyno don't tell you is response.

Reading maximum boost by corky bell is a good read too.

lt1carman

I also need to point out that some of those cx racing intercoolers have good results with some people and not others. Turbo guys seem to be much less effected then us blower guys in that area.

The Alchemist

iTrader: (19)

So maybe I leave well enough alone and stick with my ebay intercooler.

stevieturbo

Any pics of the Treadstone one you used, both external and internal ? And what sort of size was it compared to what worked better or worse ?

lt1carman

Don't have pics on the phone but the procharger might be a bigger core and has a different fin designed for just blower cars in particular. The treadstone was the 1200 hp big boy.

All the test were done on the same dyno, same car same mods and car was tuned for each one.

The response is night n day diff on the car too what used to take a second to build boost is now instant.

lt1carman

Here's a pic of the procharger one.

Also This cooler is built for a supercharger.

Orr89rocz

iTrader: (13)

Well yeah no ****. It depends on the race application but 95% of these guys are talking about drag racing

And in that sport you only need heat management for a few seconds. Any more just means more intercooler area which takes up space you may not have and also add useless weight

Orr89rocz

iTrader: (13)

Which makes no sense because compressed air doesnt care wether it comes from turbo or blower. If they aint working for blowers that tells me the blower compressor is alot less efficient and possibly combined with hot air intake as most seem to place the air filter over the headers or back of engine bay

Forcefed86

iTrader: (4)

Have you tested the CFM flow VS pressure yourself on a Treadstone IC? Pre/Post pressures? What are you basing your information from, dyno runs? I spoke with the Treadstone tech on the phone quite a bit and I believe their flow numbers. Pressure drops on my setup seems right inline with what they are advertising as well. End tank placement/design also plays a big roll. The vertical flow units all flow better than the horizontal.



Going from the typical E-bay (tube/fin) 32x12x4 A2A IC to the similarly sized Treadstone unit I picked up a ton. (4.5 mph at the same boost levels, though unfortunately I went from an LS1 to LS6 intake at the same time I swapped the IC) Wish I had the pressure drop data for the E-bay unit, but I didn’t install the peak/hold IC gauge until after. Data logged IAT’s dropped 40+* @ the same boost level. I went from barely making 2lbs on the T-brake to being able to fully light the turbo and launch at any boost I want. (20-25lbs T-brake launches) on my old 4.8 setup.

On the new turbo/hotside/engine setup I don’t see a noticeable pressure drop on my Treadstone ("1200hp" TR1245-28) @ the 17-18lbs I run. (1-2 psi maybe, the needle barely moves above MAP readings on my cheapie gauge) Going to a similarly sized Garrett core I doubt there would be a large difference in pressure drop since I have very little drop now.

The Garrett units use much denser cores, so they remove more heat form the air charge. The Treadstone cores are much denser than the cheap china ebay units. (including the china bar/plate). Without a doubt the Garrett would drop the charge temps over the TS IC, but the performance gained per $ invested is nowhere near the TS IC...or the cheap A2W units.


You can easily see below the fin density is much better in the TS units than the China units. … and best in the Garrett.

Inside of my china tube/FIN IC




Heres is the popular 31x12x4 CXracing BAR/PLATE style core many use.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/CXRacing-UNIVERSAL-BAR-PLATE-ALUMINUM-TURBO-31-x12-x4-FMIC-INTERCOOLER-/331080748720?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item4d15f34eb0&vxp=mtr



Inside Treadstone IC.





Garrett core on the bottom, Bell core on top. You can see Garrett’s blow everything else out of the water fin density wise.

lt1carman

There's a huge diff between turbo and blower efficiency and cooler design.

lt1carman

I'm not saying the treadstone is bad cooler but if your looking for Max power with a blower car there is much better options.

The treadstone was nicely made no complaints there

Tenps were not bad either

But flow was not there for higher hp, the new Garett core in the procharger cooler was made just for guys with big blowers who needed something that would not restrict and still cool well.

No other changes were made except the intercooler swap

Was the treadstone a good intercooler yes but if You want every lil bit of hp from your blower setup I would not recommend it.

Look at the guys running rengade mustang and some don't even use intercoolers or if they do its bell or garret cores and the go low8s on serpitine belts with ysi's

lt1carman

All the test were measured pre n post also.

stevieturbo

The biggest difference between turbo and blower is blatantly obvious. The blower will shift a fixed amount of air almost regardless as it's directly linked to engine rpm.

A turbo on the other hand is very dynamic and because it's regulated against boost pressure has the ability to move more/less air on demand without the driver even thinking or knowing about it. The blower will never do that.
Same boost pressure doesnt always mean same airflow.

As for fin density, I'd love to understand more about that. Clearly the Garrett has far far more density...and hence obstruction to airflow.
Yet they seem to outperform everything...presumably they really do flow well too !

So are relatively open core units just rubbish ? Do we want high fin density all the time ?

I bought a new core for mine a few years ago from a UK company....they built it to the dimensions I wanted, roughly from memory about 20" tubes, 15" stack height and 4.5" thick
It used 2 cores to achieve this, both extruded tube designs.

Clearly this will offer very good flow...oddly it looks like the cores are stacked badly but looking through the fins from the outside it doesnt look as bad. It's annoyed me, but not enough to make a change
But extruded tubes will definitely cool worse than the likes of the Garrett through lack of surface area. But it seems to be working ok for me. Garret seem to list their biggest core as only 12" in stack height, I dont see them offer any options to achieve 15" that I currently use.





I went from this, that was another butcher of 2 cores I had used 20 years ago lol They were 3" thick tube/fin design
This still seemed to flow well, but it did struggle to keep the air cool.