air to water vs. air to air
05-06-2004, 03:20 PM
#101
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Originally Posted by 427
We believe the weight saved with the a/a and the physical size and CFM rating of the a/a will benefit the cars performance.. we went 159.64mph with 200 IAT, cant wait to see how it does with 100 IAT's
That thing is going to rock!
Is this one of the Top Gun racers?
Kurt
That thing is going to rock!
Is this one of the Top Gun racers?
Kurt
05-06-2004, 08:27 PM
#102
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Do you still have the air to water intercooler with the problems? I would like to see it. What brand of core was it? Was it assembled by you or bought as a working unit?
I will be at the North vs South watching you guys go at it!!
Kurt
I will be at the North vs South watching you guys go at it!!
Kurt
Originally Posted by 8seclt1
yes.. with some traction, lower IAT's, and about 100lbs less weight, we hope to take home the cash
05-07-2004, 12:10 AM
#103
FormerVendor
Originally Posted by 427
The cars I have dealt with in the past have used air to air and air to water, both with good results.
Air to water can take your inlet air below ambient temperature's(with ice). The weight is a problem in some cases but is offset by the ability to put them anywhere. On same hp they are half the size of air to air. This would be my first choice for high hp cars.
Air to air is cheaper to buy. Biggest drawback is they need constant airflow for heat rejection. I built a 70 chevelle with a AtoA twin turbo big block. It would run around 90 degrees on average when staging, then just under 200 degrees thru the lights. Best et was 7.0X@ 197-201. We boxed up the air to air and sealed it so we could surround it with water and ice. The inlet air temps dropped to about 50 degrees staging and 110 degrees thru the lights. Best et was 6.8X@ 202-205. Then took that intercooler out for a dedicated air to water, it was about 40 percent smaller outside dimensions. The inlet air temps dropped to 40 degrees staging and always under 100 thru the lights. Best et is now 6.70@ 210. Before the run the water tank is filled with ice, 4 average sized bags will fit in. The temps will stay below 100 degrees on 2 bags and 3 gals water. The water at the end of a run will still be cold enough to keep your beer cold for the victory celebration! (or the "I thought I had him" speech)
Kurt
Air to water can take your inlet air below ambient temperature's(with ice). The weight is a problem in some cases but is offset by the ability to put them anywhere. On same hp they are half the size of air to air. This would be my first choice for high hp cars.
Air to air is cheaper to buy. Biggest drawback is they need constant airflow for heat rejection. I built a 70 chevelle with a AtoA twin turbo big block. It would run around 90 degrees on average when staging, then just under 200 degrees thru the lights. Best et was 7.0X@ 197-201. We boxed up the air to air and sealed it so we could surround it with water and ice. The inlet air temps dropped to about 50 degrees staging and 110 degrees thru the lights. Best et was 6.8X@ 202-205. Then took that intercooler out for a dedicated air to water, it was about 40 percent smaller outside dimensions. The inlet air temps dropped to 40 degrees staging and always under 100 thru the lights. Best et is now 6.70@ 210. Before the run the water tank is filled with ice, 4 average sized bags will fit in. The temps will stay below 100 degrees on 2 bags and 3 gals water. The water at the end of a run will still be cold enough to keep your beer cold for the victory celebration! (or the "I thought I had him" speech)
Kurt
Wow, a 10 mph trap speed increase just by intercooling changes is incredible. (Especially at that level). Did you happen to measure the pressure drop with the different intercoolers?
I only ask because there's a 10-15 degree difference between the converted air/air and the dedicated air/water but a 5 mph difference in trap speed. (I wouldn't think that small of a temp difference would pick up 100+hp when you're allready making almost 2,000)
05-07-2004, 06:55 AM
#104
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We never did check pressure drop across, would have been very interesting to see. The cooler we kept the inlet charge the more fuel we could burn. As the inlet temp went up the ecu would start corecting fuel out of the engine to maintain commanded A/F. When the IC started working better, the fuel stayed steady through the run. Now it seems to add up to 2% in the end of high gear. That was at Norwalk for the Halloween classic race which has colder ambient temps.
we have also added 2 degrees of timing over the last two years of running, also due to the cooler inlet temps making us braver!
Kurt
Also car is 3050 pounds raceweight, it makes over 2000hp now
we have also added 2 degrees of timing over the last two years of running, also due to the cooler inlet temps making us braver!
Kurt
Also car is 3050 pounds raceweight, it makes over 2000hp now
Originally Posted by INTMD8
Wow, a 10 mph trap speed increase just by intercooling changes is incredible. (Especially at that level). Did you happen to measure the pressure drop with the different intercoolers?
I only ask because there's a 10-15 degree difference between the converted air/air and the dedicated air/water but a 5 mph difference in trap speed. (I wouldn't think that small of a temp difference would pick up 100+hp when you're allready making almost 2,000)
I only ask because there's a 10-15 degree difference between the converted air/air and the dedicated air/water but a 5 mph difference in trap speed. (I wouldn't think that small of a temp difference would pick up 100+hp when you're allready making almost 2,000)
05-07-2004, 10:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Guido
[pissed off 3rd grader rant mode on]
I just have to comment on this thread. Thats about the most idiotic reasoning Ive ever heard in reasoning out what product is better than another. Have you not paid a bit of attention to any of the posts in this thread.
gee wiz.
[/pissed off 3rd grader rant mode off]
I just have to comment on this thread. Thats about the most idiotic reasoning Ive ever heard in reasoning out what product is better than another. Have you not paid a bit of attention to any of the posts in this thread.
gee wiz.
[/pissed off 3rd grader rant mode off]
05-07-2004, 10:45 AM
#106
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Cmon, you can use that reasoning to an extent but only in context. You can say okay yeah this guy went 170mph for an hour with sustained IAT's of 120degrees. Anyone who knows anything knows a water intercooled engine isnt going to be able to keep that pace.
Now using that as a basis to say one is better than another on a whole, is wrong. You caught me in a mood that day so Im sorry I came off so childish.
Now using that as a basis to say one is better than another on a whole, is wrong. You caught me in a mood that day so Im sorry I came off so childish.
05-07-2004, 10:55 AM
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No problem dude...I have those days too.
I just was impressed at the IAT's over the 1 hour duration..I think he told me they never went above 100 or were right about 100. Heat soak is the real issue. Obviously when we are drag racing there isn't as much time for an Air to Air to work and be efficient like an Air to Water. However LPE used Air to Air and has a TT in the 8's..maybe they were spraying down the IC's..I really don't know anything other than they used Air to Air and not Air to Water.
What happened to people spraying their Air to Air with Water/Alky to cool it off...was that just a waste of time??? I never tried it so I am asking..seems like that would be a way of having the best of both worlds.
I used to pack ice (as many others did too) all around my TPI IROC Intake Runners as a little trick to save 1/10th or 2/10 out at the strip..just with hopes of getting into the 13s...(what a load those cars were) but they were the humble beginnings of where we are at today...L98-LT1-LS1.
I just was impressed at the IAT's over the 1 hour duration..I think he told me they never went above 100 or were right about 100. Heat soak is the real issue. Obviously when we are drag racing there isn't as much time for an Air to Air to work and be efficient like an Air to Water. However LPE used Air to Air and has a TT in the 8's..maybe they were spraying down the IC's..I really don't know anything other than they used Air to Air and not Air to Water.
What happened to people spraying their Air to Air with Water/Alky to cool it off...was that just a waste of time??? I never tried it so I am asking..seems like that would be a way of having the best of both worlds.
I used to pack ice (as many others did too) all around my TPI IROC Intake Runners as a little trick to save 1/10th or 2/10 out at the strip..just with hopes of getting into the 13s...(what a load those cars were) but they were the humble beginnings of where we are at today...L98-LT1-LS1.
Last edited by Shinobi'sZ; 05-07-2004 at 11:03 AM.
05-07-2004, 12:36 PM
#108
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Shinobi, I still have a thirdgen. (check out my webpage) LOL Its far off the TPI path these days though. I have a large frame T88 with an iron LS1 Im slowly building back up for it.
Anyway, you are right about the spraying over the cores thing. It really doesnt make a big enough difference to warrant the cost. It dissipates at high speeds on the road and track although it shows good results on the dyno. LOL
Anyway, you are right about the spraying over the cores thing. It really doesnt make a big enough difference to warrant the cost. It dissipates at high speeds on the road and track although it shows good results on the dyno. LOL
05-07-2004, 12:48 PM
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You will have to let me know how your 3rd Gen turns out. I inherited 2 Firebirds a 91 V6 and Formula 350. Since they don't make FBodys anymore I wanted to leave them alone..but I have really been wanting to mod one of them with a FI LS1. I have read over on the 3rd Gen sites that this is getting easier to do. So I look fwd to hearing your results.
05-07-2004, 06:07 PM
#111
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Wow, I have missed out on the rest of this post since the first page. Anyhow, I'm sure this has been said, both setups will work VERY well on both street and strip. With the water to air it just requires using a good core, like a ATP unit, and incorporating a large heat exchanger ala the 03 Cobra which is water to air from the factory. Now if your going to run air to air, then you want to stick in a nice BIG core , and use Bar and Plate setup from ATP "which makes the spearco cores", and stay away from tube fin crap like the HKS, Greddy and Griffin intercoolers. Those are much less efficient, but cheaper cores but they will leak. A good bar/plate IC will be about 10-20% more efficient then the tube fin, so that will help even more with keeping the IAT's down and you can run a smaller air to air core for even more weight savings.
Jose
Jose
05-07-2004, 06:17 PM
#112
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I have a Griffin a/a FMIC and it works great, I think you are overgeneralizing bigtime. At the end of the day, the size of the a/a, ie; the surface area has more to do with it than anything else. Period. So many of the kit-based a/a stuff is so small that it's not very effective.
Jimmy @ Griffin and I started a small revolution in the f-body marketplace last year, we started to put big a/a fmic's in f-bodies. Nobody really ran big ones and put out any numbers. Now there are cars making a lot more power than me with the same size 'cooler from Griffin. Stangs too. No doubt a Spearco similar sized 'cooler would also rock but there is no evidence that says that they would be better then Griffin, so why go there.
My only problem with this thread is the examples given are pretty sketchy and in some cases the dyno #'s or trap speeds are not great examples of anything if you are using C16 and a huge turbo and running 130 trap speeds or making 600rwhp.
If a a/a fmic makes 800rwhp with 110 leaded and a small v8 well hell that's impressive.
Jimmy @ Griffin and I started a small revolution in the f-body marketplace last year, we started to put big a/a fmic's in f-bodies. Nobody really ran big ones and put out any numbers. Now there are cars making a lot more power than me with the same size 'cooler from Griffin. Stangs too. No doubt a Spearco similar sized 'cooler would also rock but there is no evidence that says that they would be better then Griffin, so why go there.
My only problem with this thread is the examples given are pretty sketchy and in some cases the dyno #'s or trap speeds are not great examples of anything if you are using C16 and a huge turbo and running 130 trap speeds or making 600rwhp.
If a a/a fmic makes 800rwhp with 110 leaded and a small v8 well hell that's impressive.
05-08-2004, 12:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Pro Stock John
I have a Griffin a/a FMIC and it works great, I think you are overgeneralizing bigtime. At the end of the day, the size of the a/a, ie; the surface area has more to do with it than anything else. Period. So many of the kit-based a/a stuff is so small that it's not very effective.
Jimmy @ Griffin and I started a small revolution in the f-body marketplace last year, we started to put big a/a fmic's in f-bodies. Nobody really ran big ones and put out any numbers. Now there are cars making a lot more power than me with the same size 'cooler from Griffin. Stangs too. No doubt a Spearco similar sized 'cooler would also rock but there is no evidence that says that they would be better then Griffin, so why go there.
My only problem with this thread is the examples given are pretty sketchy and in some cases the dyno #'s or trap speeds are not great examples of anything if you are using C16 and a huge turbo and running 130 trap speeds or making 600rwhp.
If a a/a fmic makes 800rwhp with 110 leaded and a small v8 well hell that's impressive.
Jimmy @ Griffin and I started a small revolution in the f-body marketplace last year, we started to put big a/a fmic's in f-bodies. Nobody really ran big ones and put out any numbers. Now there are cars making a lot more power than me with the same size 'cooler from Griffin. Stangs too. No doubt a Spearco similar sized 'cooler would also rock but there is no evidence that says that they would be better then Griffin, so why go there.
My only problem with this thread is the examples given are pretty sketchy and in some cases the dyno #'s or trap speeds are not great examples of anything if you are using C16 and a huge turbo and running 130 trap speeds or making 600rwhp.
If a a/a fmic makes 800rwhp with 110 leaded and a small v8 well hell that's impressive.
05-08-2004, 05:15 PM
#114
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Originally Posted by Pro Stock John
Jimmy @ Griffin and I started a small revolution in the f-body marketplace last year, we started to put big a/a fmic's in f-bodies. Nobody really ran big ones and put out any numbers.
Your Ego amazes me.
05-08-2004, 08:05 PM
#115
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Doh, I forgot about Rob's super big a/a FMIC, sorry about that, he did his like at least a year before I did the prototyping for Griffin.
And the revolution I started was to help bring an affordable big frontmount to the masses, in GP's folks got them for as little as $450. When I was during the iniitial research everyone told me I would be paying around $1200 for a Spearco, so that made me call Grififn and see where they might come in. They took a gamble, helped R&D it, and it worked out.
And the revolution I started was to help bring an affordable big frontmount to the masses, in GP's folks got them for as little as $450. When I was during the iniitial research everyone told me I would be paying around $1200 for a Spearco, so that made me call Grififn and see where they might come in. They took a gamble, helped R&D it, and it worked out.
05-08-2004, 09:48 PM
#116
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Originally Posted by Pro Stock John
I did the prototyping for Griffin.
Also, when you say that "Griffin helped R&D it", does that mean they consulted with you about the flow numbers, pressure drop and efficiency of various cores? Or did you personally design it yourself and they approved?
A few questions from one fabricator to another:
1. What is the efficiency and pressure drop specifics of your PSJ/Griffin FMIC.
2. Also, what is your fin count per inch?
3. Is this a all new design core specifically made for you and your car, or is this a shelved radiator core?
4. What stage of R&D development is your car now in?
5. Lastly, have you yet to figure out exactly how to lock your converter/turbo 400???
THANKS!
05-09-2004, 12:50 AM
#118
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We took off the nose of my Formula and took measurements and then Jimmy from Griffin faxed me a draft of the proposed intercooler. I forget all the other details... They did not have anything on the shelf that fit my application. I originally started talking to Melissa @ Griffin at the suggestion of some SyTy guys. Worked out pretty nice the 'coolers work great and they are very affordable.
10-14-2004, 12:06 AM
#119
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Well bummer...
maybe i should have read this thread before buying that aftercooler???
Anyways i have the aftercooler from Chris now... and i hope i don't get a problem now... i do see a problem with the kit and its that: there is no radiator...
While the aftercooler didn't seem small, pretty big, comparing it to the vortech's aftercooler to this one, and seeing that the vortech worked SO SO well after adding an additional heat exchanger i don't see how this setup can go wrong...
Anyways the aftercooler did run 8s...
http://cartechpr.com/forums/uploads/CarPics046b.jpg
What i can gather is: if the water was boiling, then the aftercooler was doing its job on heat exchanging.. if not the water would have been totally cold and the IAT risen to the sun's switchlight.
I guess that putting some copper radiators before the water tank will help the problem...
I don't think the pump i got with the kit is small... seeing that the vortech's supported over 600rwhp and in an aftercooler that sits totally on top of the headers, i guess it should be a big improvement...
We'll see... if not i made the worst decision when moving to this a2w setup.
as small as the vortechs is.. i've seen a ys-trimmed car (from juicey on cz28.com) that pumped 752rwhp on it. He used it on the street...
But hey chris i never thought you had a bad regard to it... anyways... it should still work.. i guess...
maybe i should have read this thread before buying that aftercooler???
Anyways i have the aftercooler from Chris now... and i hope i don't get a problem now... i do see a problem with the kit and its that: there is no radiator...
While the aftercooler didn't seem small, pretty big, comparing it to the vortech's aftercooler to this one, and seeing that the vortech worked SO SO well after adding an additional heat exchanger i don't see how this setup can go wrong...
Anyways the aftercooler did run 8s...
http://cartechpr.com/forums/uploads/CarPics046b.jpg
What i can gather is: if the water was boiling, then the aftercooler was doing its job on heat exchanging.. if not the water would have been totally cold and the IAT risen to the sun's switchlight.
I guess that putting some copper radiators before the water tank will help the problem...
I don't think the pump i got with the kit is small... seeing that the vortech's supported over 600rwhp and in an aftercooler that sits totally on top of the headers, i guess it should be a big improvement...
We'll see... if not i made the worst decision when moving to this a2w setup.
as small as the vortechs is.. i've seen a ys-trimmed car (from juicey on cz28.com) that pumped 752rwhp on it. He used it on the street...
But hey chris i never thought you had a bad regard to it... anyways... it should still work.. i guess...
10-14-2004, 07:02 AM
#120
LOL at Rob...good to see you here. You are right...not much talk about temp drop before/after the intercooler....pressure drop...etc. Take Mightymouses car....dump the intercooler setup all together and run 6 psi....run the TTi street kit with the base t-60 at 10 psi ....which makes more power AND which has lower IATs......I bet the no intercooler setup because of compressor efficiency. It is hard to compare different cars results because of the compressor efficiency differences. You need to keep comparisons to the same car.