Turbos running out of steam
Treadstone Intercooler findings figure I'd share a little data from this weekend. I have the TRTT9 (1300hp) cooler. Starting IAT where at 94* by the end of the 1/4 Mile run on 23.5lbs of boost the temps where knocking on 170* there almost a 75* increase in air temp.. Not real happy about that. Car was pulling timing and slowing down. I Think my turbos are out of steam.
Last edited by oscs; Feb 2, 2016 at 02:20 PM.
Seems like we need pre intercooler boost and temp numbers to really make a good judgement.
I have a Treadstone on my 69 Nova. Several of us use this model. It's actually rather small.
I don't see the model on the website anymore.
I see 155-160 at the end of a run. In buddies cars I tune with eBay coolers, I see 130-145 or so. I run 15-18 psi. Much less than you do. Buddy runs 20 psi.
What I don't know is how much pressure loss each sees. Which I think is equally important.
I'm also on E85, so I don't tend to worry about the temps I see.
If your car is pulling timing, the tune is telling it to do so.
Might not be necessary.
Look at Silver82's S10. No IC on E85 going bottom 8's.......
Prob need to do more research on what is ok. I chose mine based on pressure loss. Then modified the inlet/outlet for better flow. They were restricted inside.....it bugged me!
Ron
I have a Treadstone on my 69 Nova. Several of us use this model. It's actually rather small.
I don't see the model on the website anymore.
I see 155-160 at the end of a run. In buddies cars I tune with eBay coolers, I see 130-145 or so. I run 15-18 psi. Much less than you do. Buddy runs 20 psi.
What I don't know is how much pressure loss each sees. Which I think is equally important.
I'm also on E85, so I don't tend to worry about the temps I see.
If your car is pulling timing, the tune is telling it to do so.
Might not be necessary.
Look at Silver82's S10. No IC on E85 going bottom 8's.......
Prob need to do more research on what is ok. I chose mine based on pressure loss. Then modified the inlet/outlet for better flow. They were restricted inside.....it bugged me!
Ron
Originally Posted by RonSSNova
Seems like we need pre intercooler boost and temp numbers to really make a good judgement.
I have a Treadstone on my 69 Nova. Several of us use this model. It's actually rather small.
I don't see the model on the website anymore.
I see 155-160 at the end of a run. In buddies cars I tune with eBay coolers, I see 130-145 or so. I run 15-18 psi. Much less than you do. Buddy runs 20 psi.
What I don't know is how much pressure loss each sees. Which I think is equally important.
I'm also on E85, so I don't tend to worry about the temps I see.
If your car is pulling timing, the tune is telling it to do so.
Might not be necessary.
Look at Silver82's S10. No IC on E85 going bottom 8's.......
Prob need to do more research on what is ok. I chose mine based on pressure loss. Then modified the inlet/outlet for better flow. They were restricted inside.....it bugged me!
Ron
I have a Treadstone on my 69 Nova. Several of us use this model. It's actually rather small.
I don't see the model on the website anymore.
I see 155-160 at the end of a run. In buddies cars I tune with eBay coolers, I see 130-145 or so. I run 15-18 psi. Much less than you do. Buddy runs 20 psi.
What I don't know is how much pressure loss each sees. Which I think is equally important.
I'm also on E85, so I don't tend to worry about the temps I see.
If your car is pulling timing, the tune is telling it to do so.
Might not be necessary.
Look at Silver82's S10. No IC on E85 going bottom 8's.......
Prob need to do more research on what is ok. I chose mine based on pressure loss. Then modified the inlet/outlet for better flow. They were restricted inside.....it bugged me!
Ron
When I said "I'm not happy about this" I should clarified that I'm it happy with IAT that high not necessarily the IC. I realize that the air is going to heat up pretty decently at 25lbs with any A2A however 170* is more than I like to see.
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Originally Posted by gnx7
Was this with e85?
What kind of power are you making approx at that boost level?
What kind of power are you making approx at that boost level?
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Many years ago I ran a gen 1 small block, 383, with an old D1B Procharger
I ran around 18 lbs boost, when I ran it I would do a 50-50 mix of 93 octane and 110-i had one of the IC'ers sim. to the treadstone 25, but it was a sheetmetal one.
I did some testing, I would see over 330 degs out of the Procharger, and around 190 out of the IC'er-i ran a blowthru carb, some say the mixing of gas/air b4 the head makes a cooler charge, who knows.
Anyway, I never ran any kind of 02 sensor, etc, just relied on plug readings, pulled a little timing, I never saw any kind of damage. I kind of used 200 degs as a baseline of being safe, whether it was or not-I do try and use a fresh air intake to the SC/turbo, as opposed to sucking underhood hot air.
Obs cooler air is good for power, and I suspect some rest. in an IC'er could cause higher temps-I tried a pass with the IC'er disc during my testing, but I aborted the run when temps hit 270-i have run some of the larger Prochargers w/o IC'ers, but they spun slower, less heat
I tend to run them a little fatter
Back in my Super Stock days, we ran cool cans, some installed them on return lines, but with boost just to much vol. to prob cool, and restriction.
OK, way to much coffee this morn, lol
I ran around 18 lbs boost, when I ran it I would do a 50-50 mix of 93 octane and 110-i had one of the IC'ers sim. to the treadstone 25, but it was a sheetmetal one.
I did some testing, I would see over 330 degs out of the Procharger, and around 190 out of the IC'er-i ran a blowthru carb, some say the mixing of gas/air b4 the head makes a cooler charge, who knows.
Anyway, I never ran any kind of 02 sensor, etc, just relied on plug readings, pulled a little timing, I never saw any kind of damage. I kind of used 200 degs as a baseline of being safe, whether it was or not-I do try and use a fresh air intake to the SC/turbo, as opposed to sucking underhood hot air.
Obs cooler air is good for power, and I suspect some rest. in an IC'er could cause higher temps-I tried a pass with the IC'er disc during my testing, but I aborted the run when temps hit 270-i have run some of the larger Prochargers w/o IC'ers, but they spun slower, less heat
I tend to run them a little fatter
Back in my Super Stock days, we ran cool cans, some installed them on return lines, but with boost just to much vol. to prob cool, and restriction.
OK, way to much coffee this morn, lol
How do the plugs look? Cooler air is always better, but under 180* is fine in my book with E85. A2W would do a better job, but I don't think it's really necessary. Little pre-turbo and post-turbo water/meth injection should be more than enough to keep the engine happy on long pulls the way it sits IMO.
Nice A2W setup would pull some weight off the nose, and add some in the rear. Would also allow more air to the radiator.
Nice A2W setup would pull some weight off the nose, and add some in the rear. Would also allow more air to the radiator.
How do the plugs look? Cooler air is always better, but under 180* is fine in my book with E85. A2W would do a better job, but I don't think it's really necessary. Little pre-turbo and post-turbo water/meth injection should be more than enough to keep the engine happy on long pulls the way it sits IMO.
Nice A2W setup would pull some weight off the nose, and add some in the rear. Would also allow more air to the radiator.
Nice A2W setup would pull some weight off the nose, and add some in the rear. Would also allow more air to the radiator.
Curious if you tried running w/o the filters-I had a huge K & N on one of mine, I rem it and added a screen at the track and picked up 3 tenths
I was kind of shocked, because the filter had a larger surface area than the opening, but I guess anything that filters is a restriction
I was kind of shocked, because the filter had a larger surface area than the opening, but I guess anything that filters is a restriction
As mentioned above, you really need to know what temps/pressures are pre IC to see how well it’s doing its job. If the pressure drop across the core is too high, the turbos could be working past their efficiency zone and pumping excessively hot air.
A2W setups are hard to beat. You really don’t need a heat exchanger with them IMO. For something like you’re doing I’d run a 5 gallon tank and only circulate the water when you’re in boost. It should work about as well as your A2A that way for street use, and you can toss the ice in at the track for serious cooling. The exchanger isn’t going to get the water below ambient anyway. If the water is sitting in your tank it should be around ambient.
You really don’t want the charge temps super low with alcohol fuels. There’s a lot more fuel in the CC and it requires additional heat to help vaporize. I don’t know exactly what inlet temps are ideal with E85, but having enough heat in the charge to help vaporize the fuel is actually beneficial. Running inlet temps down in the 100* range with alky cars can actually hurt performance since the fuel can’t vaporize properly.
What A2W cores are you looking at? I’m sure you could get away with a pretty small high flow core if you bought a good one. That should lower the cost quite a bit. If you could get the inlet temps around 140-150* that would be perfect IMO.
A2W setups are hard to beat. You really don’t need a heat exchanger with them IMO. For something like you’re doing I’d run a 5 gallon tank and only circulate the water when you’re in boost. It should work about as well as your A2A that way for street use, and you can toss the ice in at the track for serious cooling. The exchanger isn’t going to get the water below ambient anyway. If the water is sitting in your tank it should be around ambient.
You really don’t want the charge temps super low with alcohol fuels. There’s a lot more fuel in the CC and it requires additional heat to help vaporize. I don’t know exactly what inlet temps are ideal with E85, but having enough heat in the charge to help vaporize the fuel is actually beneficial. Running inlet temps down in the 100* range with alky cars can actually hurt performance since the fuel can’t vaporize properly.
What A2W cores are you looking at? I’m sure you could get away with a pretty small high flow core if you bought a good one. That should lower the cost quite a bit. If you could get the inlet temps around 140-150* that would be perfect IMO.
Last edited by Forcefed86; Feb 1, 2016 at 09:34 AM.
Curious if you tried running w/o the filters-I had a huge K & N on one of mine, I rem it and added a screen at the track and picked up 3 tenths
I was kind of shocked, because the filter had a larger surface area than the opening, but I guess anything that filters is a restriction
I was kind of shocked, because the filter had a larger surface area than the opening, but I guess anything that filters is a restriction
I find it odd how they rate the intercoolers. They have the one you are using (TRTT9) rated higher then the one I use (TR1245). But the TR1245 has more cooling area and the core design looks the same. I don't see too much of a rise certainly not 75 degrees, I usually don't see over 120-130 at the end of a run, using the GM open element sensor threaded into the intake manifold.
TRTT9
Core Size, 25" X 9" X 3.5"
Overall lenght 28"
3" outlet and 2-2.5" inlets
1950 CFM flow rate, 1300 HP efficient
TR1245
Core Size, 22" X 12.5" X 4.5"
-Overall lenght 30"
-3" inlet/outlet
-4.5" core, 1469 CFM flow rate, 1000hp efficient
TRTT9
Core Size, 25" X 9" X 3.5"
Overall lenght 28"
3" outlet and 2-2.5" inlets
1950 CFM flow rate, 1300 HP efficient
TR1245
Core Size, 22" X 12.5" X 4.5"
-Overall lenght 30"
-3" inlet/outlet
-4.5" core, 1469 CFM flow rate, 1000hp efficient
His temps seem awfully high for twin 366's. Might try another IAT sensor and pressure check the system too.
I rarely see over 150 (wanting to say 140* or less) @ 20lbs with my TS 1245-28 1200 hp core and a single S476. Thats starting out heat soaked at 100*+ with hotter ambient temps. I'll get exact numbers when I get home.
I rarely see over 150 (wanting to say 140* or less) @ 20lbs with my TS 1245-28 1200 hp core and a single S476. Thats starting out heat soaked at 100*+ with hotter ambient temps. I'll get exact numbers when I get home.
