Why no inline "booster" pumps?
04-13-2018, 01:31 PM
#121
Last I spoke with him he was a bit delayed in testing. I'm sure interested to hear the results myself!
In answer to your question you'll get a bit more flow at like pressures, but you mainly want a work horse pump at low pressures like the 450, then put the 044 inline to run crazy high base pressures to extend the fuel system capabilities.
Even at low pressures the stock BMW pump probably doesn't flow much compared to a 450.
In answer to your question you'll get a bit more flow at like pressures, but you mainly want a work horse pump at low pressures like the 450, then put the 044 inline to run crazy high base pressures to extend the fuel system capabilities.
Even at low pressures the stock BMW pump probably doesn't flow much compared to a 450.
04-13-2018, 03:56 PM
#123
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No, I'm sure it doesn't. It's probably not even a 255. Surprisingly though, it did a decent job running E85 through Deka 80s up to about 8psi. It was a lot peppier than I expected it to be. IIRC, it did almost 108 in the quarter, coasting for a good part of the distance, waiting for the 4L30e to find the next gear lol..
04-16-2018, 09:49 AM
#125
From my reading the dual pumps in series shows a 20% rough gain in flow at the same pressures, but working fuel pressure doubles. So say a 450lph flows 450lph at 43psi, add another 380 inline and flow will increase about 90lph at 43psi but both pumps are only working at 1/2 the pressure so total fuel pressure is 43psi but each pump is essentially only working at 21.5psi which is nothing. So at 100psi base pressure with dual inline pumps you will only be pushing each pump 50psi and still flowing the same 450+90lph. Its crazy when you think about it bc you can run stupid high pressures and the pumps dont break a sweat. The issue is that your injectors need to be able to handle the pressure, fittings and filters etc.
From what Ive read tho, your good aftermarket Deka or Bosch can handle 100+PSI fuel pressures and still work correctly. So you could easily run 80psi base and have room for 20psi boost raise/ratio.
This is exactly why I have a 450 in my tank and a AEM 380 on the shelf so I can do this once I max out my 72lb injectors. Way cheaper to add a 2nd pump than to upgrade injectors. Plus at another 22+base pressure my 72lb will jump up to 85lb at 80psi base. ANd both pumps would be working at a much healthier 40psi vs pushing one pump to 80psi + boost pressure.
From what Ive read tho, your good aftermarket Deka or Bosch can handle 100+PSI fuel pressures and still work correctly. So you could easily run 80psi base and have room for 20psi boost raise/ratio.
This is exactly why I have a 450 in my tank and a AEM 380 on the shelf so I can do this once I max out my 72lb injectors. Way cheaper to add a 2nd pump than to upgrade injectors. Plus at another 22+base pressure my 72lb will jump up to 85lb at 80psi base. ANd both pumps would be working at a much healthier 40psi vs pushing one pump to 80psi + boost pressure.
04-16-2018, 12:57 PM
#127
Also FWIW the intank pump can “blow through” The inline pump. So no need to run them both all the time.
In theory the pumps would share the load equally. I don’t know if that’s what happens in practice since the second pump is “regulated” Buy the FPR and the first is not? Assuming you ran an FPR in between the 2 you could adjust the pressure provided by the first pump and the second pump? I dunno…just rambling now. But I’d sure like to see a gauge in-between the 2.
Another Issue I see is running 80+lbs of base pressure is it’s hard on things in general as mentioned. If you had say a 2:1 or so FMU in place of the an FPR you could add pressure with boost without having to maintain crazy high base pressures.
Problem is they don’t really make low ratio FMU’s. Lowest I’ve seen it 6:1. So you’d have to bleed the single going to the FMU down to get your lower ratios. So if you ran 20lbs @ 3:1 you’d raise the pressure 60 over your base. So run 40 base to max out the injectors.
In theory the pumps would share the load equally. I don’t know if that’s what happens in practice since the second pump is “regulated” Buy the FPR and the first is not? Assuming you ran an FPR in between the 2 you could adjust the pressure provided by the first pump and the second pump? I dunno…just rambling now. But I’d sure like to see a gauge in-between the 2.
Another Issue I see is running 80+lbs of base pressure is it’s hard on things in general as mentioned. If you had say a 2:1 or so FMU in place of the an FPR you could add pressure with boost without having to maintain crazy high base pressures.
Problem is they don’t really make low ratio FMU’s. Lowest I’ve seen it 6:1. So you’d have to bleed the single going to the FMU down to get your lower ratios. So if you ran 20lbs @ 3:1 you’d raise the pressure 60 over your base. So run 40 base to max out the injectors.
04-16-2018, 01:10 PM
#128
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Begi used to make adjustable rate regulators that would do 2:1 - 8:1.
In all honesty, this all sounds a lot like an overly complicated way to solve a problem that can be solved in other ways.
In all honesty, this all sounds a lot like an overly complicated way to solve a problem that can be solved in other ways.
04-16-2018, 01:43 PM
#130
If I can throw a $20 pump (hell even 2) in series with my current AEM380 and bump base up to 100psi to extend the 80’s or decapped stock injectors a good ways it makes sense to me. If you see a 20ish% in flow increase and the ability to run big pressure it seems like an ok investment in cost VS performance.
Not to mention it sounds like 3 of these $20 pumps in parallel could flow 120ish gph. Cruise around on a “reliable” pump and have the 3 044 clones pop on under boost to keep the reliability up. From the testing I’ve seen they put out about 44gph each at 70psi unrestricted. And unlike many pumps, flow drops VERY little with pressure all the way up to 100psi.
Not to mention it sounds like 3 of these $20 pumps in parallel could flow 120ish gph. Cruise around on a “reliable” pump and have the 3 044 clones pop on under boost to keep the reliability up. From the testing I’ve seen they put out about 44gph each at 70psi unrestricted. And unlike many pumps, flow drops VERY little with pressure all the way up to 100psi.
Last edited by Forcefed86; 04-16-2018 at 02:11 PM.
04-16-2018, 01:56 PM
#131
Pressure is double, flow is only about 20% more. Reason being that the pump is now flowing at 1/2 its pressure even though base pressure is the same.
04-16-2018, 02:21 PM
#132
A couple of issues that I have brought up in the past with stagged pumps in series is how you regulate the fuel pressure not to mention the tune data will change as pressure/flow increases.
You can pump fuel through a dead pump... however I'm not totally sure how much or how much of a restriction there is (depending on pump design etc).
Say you have single pump that flows x pressure at x psi, you set the regulator at x pressure with the pump on to set base pressure (you input injector flow data based on pressure/flow). Throughout the rev range the pump flow never changes and the regulator (injector flow) remains true with accuracy. Now Add a pump in series, the 2nd pump is off and thus some restriction is placed on the original pump and thus flow decreases some amount. You set the regulator for base pressure and injector data for the new adjusted regulator flow of the slightly restricted original pump. Boost comes in and the 2nd pump turns on. The initial restriction disapears as the off pump is now on and no restriction which affects the original regulator flow/pressure. Then the 2nd pump adds on top of that additional flow which increases fuel flow by say 20%. The 20% of fuel now corrupts your inputed injector flow data in the PCM as a minimum. But more than likely as you pump is flowing 20% plus the restriction (that is now gone) your pump flow increases and thus the regulator is fighting additional flow which should and will probably increase pressure through the regulator. So how do you adjust regulator base pressure on the fly and injector flow data when the 2nd or 3rd pump is activated while driving? I'm not totally sure that pressure will increase with the activation of a dead pump and its just a theory. I wouldn't be super hard to test with the engine off just to get an idea of what happens when the 2nd pump flows.
You can pump fuel through a dead pump... however I'm not totally sure how much or how much of a restriction there is (depending on pump design etc).
Say you have single pump that flows x pressure at x psi, you set the regulator at x pressure with the pump on to set base pressure (you input injector flow data based on pressure/flow). Throughout the rev range the pump flow never changes and the regulator (injector flow) remains true with accuracy. Now Add a pump in series, the 2nd pump is off and thus some restriction is placed on the original pump and thus flow decreases some amount. You set the regulator for base pressure and injector data for the new adjusted regulator flow of the slightly restricted original pump. Boost comes in and the 2nd pump turns on. The initial restriction disapears as the off pump is now on and no restriction which affects the original regulator flow/pressure. Then the 2nd pump adds on top of that additional flow which increases fuel flow by say 20%. The 20% of fuel now corrupts your inputed injector flow data in the PCM as a minimum. But more than likely as you pump is flowing 20% plus the restriction (that is now gone) your pump flow increases and thus the regulator is fighting additional flow which should and will probably increase pressure through the regulator. So how do you adjust regulator base pressure on the fly and injector flow data when the 2nd or 3rd pump is activated while driving? I'm not totally sure that pressure will increase with the activation of a dead pump and its just a theory. I wouldn't be super hard to test with the engine off just to get an idea of what happens when the 2nd pump flows.
04-16-2018, 02:35 PM
#133
The added flow and pressure is a constant, so tuning around it isn’t an issue. With auto tune and closed loop fueling it’s pretty much a plug and play deal.
I’m mainly curious about amp draw, “inter-stage” pressures, and total flow at higher pressure in different configurations. How would 2 in parallel and 1 in series act etc… If I could get 900hp worth of flow at 100psi under 50a in that config…
I’m mainly curious about amp draw, “inter-stage” pressures, and total flow at higher pressure in different configurations. How would 2 in parallel and 1 in series act etc… If I could get 900hp worth of flow at 100psi under 50a in that config…
04-17-2018, 11:36 AM
#134
Walbro 450 pulls like 13.5-15amps. in the 20-50psi range. (in series would be good for 40-100psi base pressure)
AEM 380 pulls 9.5 - 10.5amps in the 35-50psi range.
So a 450 and a 380 in series could pull 23amps at 40psi base and 25.5amps at 100psi base.
The AEM 380 flows about 375lph at 50psi and 10.5amps. A 20% increase in flow due to being in series (as this is the weaker of the 2 pumps) would net you an estimated 75lph in additional flow. That is about 450lph at 50psi as a minimum I would think. But since in reality that 50psi is really 100psi at the rail due to dual pumps in series your really looking at 480ish lph at 40psi base but flow wouldnt really drop off that much from the pressure increase of 40psi base to 100psi (or 20psi/pump to 50psi/pump). So you would still get a full 450lph flow all the way up to 100psi fuel rail pressures.
This means you can push a good injector to 100psi with essentially no loss in flow from the pumps but increase your injector sizing a good bit. Say like a deka 80 at 43psi vs 80psi and still gives you 20psi for boost and not even work the pumps. Should be enough to easily handle 1000hp on pump, E85 is a different story.
AEM 380 pulls 9.5 - 10.5amps in the 35-50psi range.
So a 450 and a 380 in series could pull 23amps at 40psi base and 25.5amps at 100psi base.
The AEM 380 flows about 375lph at 50psi and 10.5amps. A 20% increase in flow due to being in series (as this is the weaker of the 2 pumps) would net you an estimated 75lph in additional flow. That is about 450lph at 50psi as a minimum I would think. But since in reality that 50psi is really 100psi at the rail due to dual pumps in series your really looking at 480ish lph at 40psi base but flow wouldnt really drop off that much from the pressure increase of 40psi base to 100psi (or 20psi/pump to 50psi/pump). So you would still get a full 450lph flow all the way up to 100psi fuel rail pressures.
This means you can push a good injector to 100psi with essentially no loss in flow from the pumps but increase your injector sizing a good bit. Say like a deka 80 at 43psi vs 80psi and still gives you 20psi for boost and not even work the pumps. Should be enough to easily handle 1000hp on pump, E85 is a different story.
04-18-2018, 04:32 PM
#135
I'm really sorry about me taking forever guys. I plan on running the last tests this weekend and finishing the writeup for you guys soon.
Life is pretty hectic these days and unfortunately I put this on the back burning for a while there. I know we all want some real answers so we can set up our fuel systems appropriately given each and every persons resources/money/time/needs etc
Life is pretty hectic these days and unfortunately I put this on the back burning for a while there. I know we all want some real answers so we can set up our fuel systems appropriately given each and every persons resources/money/time/needs etc
07-01-2020, 08:49 PM
#136
I'm really sorry about me taking forever guys. I plan on running the last tests this weekend and finishing the writeup for you guys soon.
Life is pretty hectic these days and unfortunately I put this on the back burning for a while there. I know we all want some real answers so we can set up our fuel systems appropriately given each and every persons resources/money/time/needs etc
Life is pretty hectic these days and unfortunately I put this on the back burning for a while there. I know we all want some real answers so we can set up our fuel systems appropriately given each and every persons resources/money/time/needs etc
07-01-2020, 10:45 PM
#137
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It's a bummer. I was really interested in finding out what the testing revealed too.. You don't have any contact info for him from when you sent the pumps to him?
07-02-2020, 12:12 AM
#138
07-02-2020, 07:27 AM
#139
I do have several emails and PMs. He did do some testing as well. I believe life just happened and he no longer had time to do the tests or send the pumps back to me. Not a huge deal... but between fitting/hose and pumps and shipping it was probably around $100. At the end of testing the deal was he'd ship all that stuff back. Just a shame he didn't follow through on that part. I had planed on using those pumps on a project that has long since passed.
07-02-2020, 07:35 AM
#140
Some info on tests, this was in July 2017.
Right on. Still finishing, but did a little last night. Interesting result....when you run 2 pumps in parallel through the 1 regulator, the flow rate in that configuration flows right around 80% of what the sum of each pump flows by theirselves. Meaning Pump#1 and Pump#2 Parallel flow rate = 80% of Pump#1 solo flow rate + Pump#2 solo flowrate.
With multiple pumps I am having an issue with controlling voltage through the tests. So the flow rate is artificially decreasing with multiple pumps and higher pressure. But at the lower pressures (40-70psi) where I could keep ~14.5 volts continuously, the flow rate was consistently ~78-82% of that of the 2 summed together. I was not aware that this fuel pressure regulator was that restrictive. Anyways I am going to have to switch up my power supply and repeat some of the tests. I am going to try and snag 3 power supplies from work if possible and do some varying voltage tests. I was thinking 12V, 13.8V, and 16V (BAP people). Any thoughts on this?
With multiple pumps I am having an issue with controlling voltage through the tests. So the flow rate is artificially decreasing with multiple pumps and higher pressure. But at the lower pressures (40-70psi) where I could keep ~14.5 volts continuously, the flow rate was consistently ~78-82% of that of the 2 summed together. I was not aware that this fuel pressure regulator was that restrictive. Anyways I am going to have to switch up my power supply and repeat some of the tests. I am going to try and snag 3 power supplies from work if possible and do some varying voltage tests. I was thinking 12V, 13.8V, and 16V (BAP people). Any thoughts on this?
Looking at these graphs I produced for these knockoff pumps I am completely floored. The flow is inversely PROPORTIONAL with pressure increase all the way from 40-100 psig. No dive off observed to 100psig. Nothing like the Walbros. If you approve, I will run a single pump up to say 120-130 psi to see where it rolls off. Test can be limited to less than 30 seconds each. Shouldn't hurt the pump. Maybe I will do this one very last if your cool with it. I feel that for the price of these why the hell not.
If these pumps could be reliable (they could be) then these would be an awesome option for high pressure guys squeezing the last bit out of their injectors. As far as the pumps, nope not hot and not making noise. The loud one seems a bit quieter now actually. I just finished a hardcore engine and trans calibration for a supercharged escalade this past weekend so I will resume the fuel flow tests soon.
If these pumps could be reliable (they could be) then these would be an awesome option for high pressure guys squeezing the last bit out of their injectors. As far as the pumps, nope not hot and not making noise. The loud one seems a bit quieter now actually. I just finished a hardcore engine and trans calibration for a supercharged escalade this past weekend so I will resume the fuel flow tests soon.