Why no inline "booster" pumps?
Thread Starter
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 8,482
Likes: 1,026
From: Wichita, KS
Why no inline "booster" pumps? Just curious why people are quick to add 3 or even 4 intank pumps in parallel when pressure VS flow seems to be the issue?
Not saying 2 or 3 pumps aren't needed in some setups, but...
Wouldn't say an intank 450lph (or even 2 450 intank pumps) with a single AEM380 inline be able to maintain higher pressure/flow rates than say 3 450lph in tank pumps? Adding the second stage of pump inline compounding pressure seems like it would work much better if you are pushing high pressure on smallish lines?
Maybe I'm missing something. Is there anyway to calculate the flow with a booster pump?
Not saying 2 or 3 pumps aren't needed in some setups, but...
Wouldn't say an intank 450lph (or even 2 450 intank pumps) with a single AEM380 inline be able to maintain higher pressure/flow rates than say 3 450lph in tank pumps? Adding the second stage of pump inline compounding pressure seems like it would work much better if you are pushing high pressure on smallish lines?
Maybe I'm missing something. Is there anyway to calculate the flow with a booster pump?
Just curious why people are quick to add 3 or even 4 intank pumps in parallel when pressure VS flow seems to be the issue?
Not saying 2 or 3 pumps aren't needed in some setups, but...
Wouldn't say an intank 450lph (or even 2 450 intank pumps) with a single AEM380 inline be able to maintain higher pressure/flow rates than say 3 450lph in tank pumps? Adding the second stage of pump inline compounding pressure seems like it would work much better if you are pushing high pressure on smallish lines?
Maybe I'm missing something. Is there anyway to calculate the flow with a booster pump?
Not saying 2 or 3 pumps aren't needed in some setups, but...
Wouldn't say an intank 450lph (or even 2 450 intank pumps) with a single AEM380 inline be able to maintain higher pressure/flow rates than say 3 450lph in tank pumps? Adding the second stage of pump inline compounding pressure seems like it would work much better if you are pushing high pressure on smallish lines?
Maybe I'm missing something. Is there anyway to calculate the flow with a booster pump?
TECH Fanatic
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 1,280
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From: Pittsboro, IN
The main issues is needing more flow at the higher pressures but adding the pump in series will gain you much less than adding it in parallel. It might give you a little more room but not a whole lot.
This explains its ok,
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/pu...ial-d_636.html
This explains its ok,
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/pu...ial-d_636.html
Thread Starter
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 8,482
Likes: 1,026
From: Wichita, KS
I’d think by relieving the supply pump pressure wise it would pump a lot more volume. Then the booster pump should be able to really jack the pressure. Talking about being able to maintain the 120gph of flow from a single 450 in tank and jacking pressures up to 90-100psi at the rail with the booster.
The big boy product engineering pumps do just this with their dual stage pumps. 230 gallons per hour @ 100 PSI is some serious fuel for an electric pump.
https://www.product-engineering.net/...ons/fuel-pumps
The big boy product engineering pumps do just this with their dual stage pumps. 230 gallons per hour @ 100 PSI is some serious fuel for an electric pump.
https://www.product-engineering.net/...ons/fuel-pumps
I'm doing this right now. A single intank 255 and the car was dropping fuel pressure. Added an inline 255 and the problem is gone. And theoretically I'd either pump dies it should basically stop flow instead of just leaning out like with twin in tanks in parallel.
Wouldn't say an intank 450lph (or even 2 450 intank pumps) with a single AEM380 inline be able to maintain higher pressure/flow rates than say 3 450lph in tank pumps? Adding the second stage of pump inline compounding pressure seems like it would work much better if you are pushing high pressure on smallish lines?
9 Second Club
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 13,616
Likes: 185
From: Norn Iron
Just curious why people are quick to add 3 or even 4 intank pumps in parallel when pressure VS flow seems to be the issue?
Not saying 2 or 3 pumps aren't needed in some setups, but...
Wouldn't say an intank 450lph (or even 2 450 intank pumps) with a single AEM380 inline be able to maintain higher pressure/flow rates than say 3 450lph in tank pumps? Adding the second stage of pump inline compounding pressure seems like it would work much better if you are pushing high pressure on smallish lines?
Maybe I'm missing something. Is there anyway to calculate the flow with a booster pump?
Not saying 2 or 3 pumps aren't needed in some setups, but...
Wouldn't say an intank 450lph (or even 2 450 intank pumps) with a single AEM380 inline be able to maintain higher pressure/flow rates than say 3 450lph in tank pumps? Adding the second stage of pump inline compounding pressure seems like it would work much better if you are pushing high pressure on smallish lines?
Maybe I'm missing something. Is there anyway to calculate the flow with a booster pump?
So while yes you will get a small increase in flow ability and perhaps a large increase in pressure ability...which is more important ? And are your injectors proven reliable at the elevated pressures you might run ?
And if you had 2x450's feeding a single inline 380...the 380 will be the main restriction in that system.
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What stevieturbo said is correct.
If I had 2 in tank pumps, 1 inline pump, and a fuel pressure regulator I could run a series of tests for you guys in different plumbing configurations through one of our laboratory grade coriolos flow meters and provide the flow vs. pressure curves for 1 in tank with and without booster pump, and 2 in tanks with and without a single booster pump.
2 pumps in parallel will support more power, especially at lower fuel pressures. How drastic is the difference??? I would love to run the tests and find out...
If I had 2 in tank pumps, 1 inline pump, and a fuel pressure regulator I could run a series of tests for you guys in different plumbing configurations through one of our laboratory grade coriolos flow meters and provide the flow vs. pressure curves for 1 in tank with and without booster pump, and 2 in tanks with and without a single booster pump.
2 pumps in parallel will support more power, especially at lower fuel pressures. How drastic is the difference??? I would love to run the tests and find out...
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Thread Starter
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 8,482
Likes: 1,026
From: Wichita, KS
Series pumps will never flow as much as the same two pumps in parallel.
So while yes you will get a small increase in flow ability and perhaps a large increase in pressure ability...which is more important ? And are your injectors proven reliable at the elevated pressures you might run ?
And if you had 2x450's feeding a single inline 380...the 380 will be the main restriction in that system.
So while yes you will get a small increase in flow ability and perhaps a large increase in pressure ability...which is more important ? And are your injectors proven reliable at the elevated pressures you might run ?
And if you had 2x450's feeding a single inline 380...the 380 will be the main restriction in that system.
I don’t see why you would be stuck using like pumps? Looking at this like a compound turbo setup. You need a high volume low pressure pump feeding a high pressure pump. Is the small turbo the “main restriction” in a compound turbo setup? Doesn’t seem to be the case to me…
If I had 2 in tank pumps, 1 inline pump, and a fuel pressure regulator I could run a series of tests for you guys in different plumbing configurations through one of our laboratory grade coriolos flow meters and provide the flow vs. pressure curves for 1 in tank with and without booster pump, and 2 in tanks with and without a single booster pump.
2 pumps in parallel will support more power, especially at lower fuel pressures. How drastic is the difference??? I would love to run the tests and find out...
2 pumps in parallel will support more power, especially at lower fuel pressures. How drastic is the difference??? I would love to run the tests and find out...
I was thinking I could use the $23 shipped 044 clones. Could run 2 pumps in parallel supplying 1 in series. Then check the 3 in parallel at like high pressures.
Last edited by Forcefed86; Apr 4, 2017 at 08:03 AM.
TECH Fanatic
Joined: Oct 2015
Posts: 1,280
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From: Pittsboro, IN
I am sure the pumps in series would carry flow at the higher pressures. But those who need to volume of 2-3 pumps aren't going to benefit as much with added flow at 100-120psi unless its on a 4 cylinder or something running 50+psi boost pressure.
Thread Starter
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 8,482
Likes: 1,026
From: Wichita, KS
Specifically talking about using this type of system on factory lines with relatively small injectors where guys use the pressure as a crutch for inadequate fuel systems. Factory 3/8 hard lines and the typical 80lb injectors are the norm in LS turbo world so let’s use that. Price and simplicity of install also plays a big part.
Assuming the same pumps were used… Would this halve the amperage requirements on each pump? I know 2-4 pumps in parallel can really hog some amperage at high pressures.
If you had say 4 $23 044 clones. 2 supplying fuel to each rail in series, each rail with its own -6 $30 return regulator. I’d think you could pump out some serious pressure and flow for a tenth of the cost of the typical “race” fuel system. Could always use a better pump if you wanted. 255 hp walbros/044’s/AEM380’s etc. On paper something like this would pump out much more fuel than say a Magnafuel 4303 at 100psi for under $100 worth of pump.
Something like this with the pumps along the frame rails would make for an easy install plenty of room for filters, etc…
Using like pumps still seems like a disadvantage. But I don’ t know what you’d use for a low pressure high volume supply. Lift pump maybe?
Assuming the same pumps were used… Would this halve the amperage requirements on each pump? I know 2-4 pumps in parallel can really hog some amperage at high pressures.
If you had say 4 $23 044 clones. 2 supplying fuel to each rail in series, each rail with its own -6 $30 return regulator. I’d think you could pump out some serious pressure and flow for a tenth of the cost of the typical “race” fuel system. Could always use a better pump if you wanted. 255 hp walbros/044’s/AEM380’s etc. On paper something like this would pump out much more fuel than say a Magnafuel 4303 at 100psi for under $100 worth of pump.
Something like this with the pumps along the frame rails would make for an easy install plenty of room for filters, etc…
Using like pumps still seems like a disadvantage. But I don’ t know what you’d use for a low pressure high volume supply. Lift pump maybe?
The way I see this is the inline booster pump, Relieves pressure and allows the in-tank Main Pump to maximize Volume every time the pressure is dropped lower by the inline pump, so the inline maintains the Fuel Rail pressure while the in-tank pump keeps the flow coming... EFi pumps always seem to flow more Volume at less pressure, so the inline pump is a cheaper way to get more out of the in-tank pump...
yet if Cost isn't an issue adequate Main pumps would always be better for Total HP Goal...
yet if Cost isn't an issue adequate Main pumps would always be better for Total HP Goal...
Thread Starter
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 8,482
Likes: 1,026
From: Wichita, KS
If money wasn’t an option. I still think you’d be better off with 2 pumps splitting the load to make higher pressures more easily. (assuming high pressure was the goal) But moneys always a factor for me. Spending less for more performance is always a win in my book. Esp. if you can do it with a quality part(s).
Figure a $500 4303 is good for about 126gph @ 70psi
1 AEM 380 = 90GPH @ 70psi for $128.
2 380’s = 180GPH -$256 -already more performance for about half the money.
3 380’s = 270GPH - $384
What I want to know is if 2 AEM380’s feeding a single booster 380 would be capable of more flow than 3 in parallel… at say 120psi? Also how much amperage this would save since the 2 supply pumps wouldn’t be working as hard. The dinky $23 044 knock offs would make for a cheap easy test. I bet they would flow more than $500 4303 for about $70.
Figure a $500 4303 is good for about 126gph @ 70psi
1 AEM 380 = 90GPH @ 70psi for $128.
2 380’s = 180GPH -$256 -already more performance for about half the money.
3 380’s = 270GPH - $384
What I want to know is if 2 AEM380’s feeding a single booster 380 would be capable of more flow than 3 in parallel… at say 120psi? Also how much amperage this would save since the 2 supply pumps wouldn’t be working as hard. The dinky $23 044 knock offs would make for a cheap easy test. I bet they would flow more than $500 4303 for about $70.
9 Second Club
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From: Norn Iron
At what pressure? Are you sure that’s true at say 100psi? 120 psi? From what I hear, the mechanical pump FI methanol guys are running 120+ and having no issues. Pressure and flow are equally important IMO.
I don’t see why you would be stuck using like pumps? Looking at this like a compound turbo setup. You need a high volume low pressure pump feeding a high pressure pump. Is the small turbo the “main restriction” in a compound turbo setup? Doesn’t seem to be the case to me…
I don’t see why you would be stuck using like pumps? Looking at this like a compound turbo setup. You need a high volume low pressure pump feeding a high pressure pump. Is the small turbo the “main restriction” in a compound turbo setup? Doesn’t seem to be the case to me…
And it isnt like a turbo system at all. Air is compressible....liquids are not. So whilst you can compress and squeeze more air through a fixed orifice quite easily, the same isnt going to happen with a liquid.
The pump internals at some point will become a limiting factor no matter how many feeder pumps you give it. Much much earlier than the compound turbo scenario.
Thread Starter
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 8,482
Likes: 1,026
From: Wichita, KS
And no doubt they are using injectors designed with that in mind, and that also have fairly substantial coils and pull more current than most average injectors ?
And it isnt like a turbo system at all. Air is compressible....liquids are not. So whilst you can compress and squeeze more air through a fixed orifice quite easily, the same isnt going to happen with a liquid.
The pump internals at some point will become a limiting factor no matter how many feeder pumps you give it. Much much earlier than the compound turbo scenario.
And it isnt like a turbo system at all. Air is compressible....liquids are not. So whilst you can compress and squeeze more air through a fixed orifice quite easily, the same isnt going to happen with a liquid.
The pump internals at some point will become a limiting factor no matter how many feeder pumps you give it. Much much earlier than the compound turbo scenario.
Fuel may not compress, but my point is the pressure will compound. The way I’m looking at it... 2 identical pumps in series should theoretically halve the work of each pump?
The AEM380’s use AN10 inlet and AN6 outlet (which I’m sure could be changed). No more of a restriction than the 3/8 hard line system I’m talking about Id guess. So the lines are more of a restriction than the pump I would think? You can over come the volume limit of a smaller line by adding pressure. (to a point anyway)
Only way to know is to test it I suppose.
Last edited by Forcefed86; Apr 4, 2017 at 01:50 PM.
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Joined: Jun 2013
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From: Avon, Ohio
Its been tested. Even at 100psi, the pumps in series are getting smoked by those in parallel.
http://www.sponaugle.com/nasioc/fuelpumpgraph2.jpg
The math says your barking up the wring tree unless you need 200+ PSi. IF you think the maths wrong, build the ring and test your theory.
Thread Starter
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 8,482
Likes: 1,026
From: Wichita, KS
I didn’t know something similar was already tested. Thanks for the info… It seems a little flawed though. Says the walbro 255hp intank pump started bleeding pressure at 80 psi. Since the only series example is using an intank pump that bypasses fuel at higher pressures. The test isn’t super accurate at 100psi.
That’s not super relevant to what I’m doing either. I’m talking about supplying all the needed volume with the 1st stage pump(s). Then using an additional pump(s) as a pressure booster. Obviously if the supply pump can’t keep up with the demand at lower pressures it won’t work. Something like a 450 being boosted by a 255 inline. Or a pair of 044 style pumps being boosted by a third pump.
That’s not super relevant to what I’m doing either. I’m talking about supplying all the needed volume with the 1st stage pump(s). Then using an additional pump(s) as a pressure booster. Obviously if the supply pump can’t keep up with the demand at lower pressures it won’t work. Something like a 450 being boosted by a 255 inline. Or a pair of 044 style pumps being boosted by a third pump.
Thread Starter
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 8,482
Likes: 1,026
From: Wichita, KS
Not sure how it would work out with the regulator installed, but this proves the point well enough that it "works"
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/pu...ial-d_636.html
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/pu...ial-d_636.html