6.0 keeps breaking ringlands
05-23-2017, 12:29 PM
#61
Thats not true. Im 31, laptops and the internet and all of that have been around my entire life. There arent many guys older then 50 that are tuning EFI cars.
And i disagree with almost everything youve said in this thread. i do agree he needs to take a step back and really look at whats going, ask questions and get advice, but whats he going to learn by giving up and paying someone to tune it?
You can read all you want. You can be the smartest internet troll on this planet, but none of that means **** without experience and that means blowing **** up.
And i dont see the OP in here complaining that he is tired of swinging motors into his vehicle so i say keep on trying.
And i disagree with almost everything youve said in this thread. i do agree he needs to take a step back and really look at whats going, ask questions and get advice, but whats he going to learn by giving up and paying someone to tune it?
You can read all you want. You can be the smartest internet troll on this planet, but none of that means **** without experience and that means blowing **** up.
And i dont see the OP in here complaining that he is tired of swinging motors into his vehicle so i say keep on trying.
05-23-2017, 12:43 PM
#62
9 Second Club
In this day and age with the technology around, there is little excuse for blowing **** up, especially on a low powered setup.
If you were pushing the ragged edge on something, then sometimes **** just happens but that is not the case here.
As for people over 50 not tuning EFI cars ?
It's almost the opposite in the UK. It's more common for people over 40, 45, 50 to be tuning cars and going fast reliably, and people under that thinking they're tuning cars ( as if it's a game on their laptop ) and blowing them up. The younger they get, the more are blowing stuff up !
Not in every case of course, there are some old guys that despite years of doing it...are still blowing **** up lol I'll never understand them !
If you were pushing the ragged edge on something, then sometimes **** just happens but that is not the case here.
As for people over 50 not tuning EFI cars ?
It's almost the opposite in the UK. It's more common for people over 40, 45, 50 to be tuning cars and going fast reliably, and people under that thinking they're tuning cars ( as if it's a game on their laptop ) and blowing them up. The younger they get, the more are blowing stuff up !
Not in every case of course, there are some old guys that despite years of doing it...are still blowing **** up lol I'll never understand them !
05-23-2017, 12:51 PM
#63
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WOW
Seems that "AFR in the low 10's when in boost" is not the case at all.
I don't think you should replace the O2 sensor. It's probably just fine.
I would however, get everything to a safe starting place. Lowest boost (maybe even pull the WG spring/s out altogether), low timing, and richer than commanded at all points.
Once you've got the VE table close, but still slightly richer than commanded per the O2 sensor at low boost and low timing, find a stretch of road with little traffic and put a fresh spark plug in #7 (you're gonna want to order a bunch of plugs).
No need to break the sound barrier, be safe. Make a WOT pass, maybe 1st, 2nd, and a bump into 3rd. Pull over immediately and turn the engine off. Pull the plug, inspect and take a couple close up pictures of it (helpful if you make each reading pic identifyable as to what pull it was from. Hash marks on your finger nail or a piece of paper that's in the photo. That way you know what's what if you need to review them later.), put a new one in, review data log, add a degree of timing back in, and make a run back up the road to where you started. Pull over and repeat the process, except make fuel adjustments this time.
Check spark plug, review data log, adjust timing, run up the road
Check spark plug, review data log, adjust VE's, run down the road
Check spark plug, review data log, adjust timing, run up the road
Check spark plug, review data log, adjust VE's, run down the road
Don't push it. Keep everything slightly rich and slightly conservative on timing for whatever kPa is the lowest you can muster.
Then put a light spring in the WG and repeat the whole process over again.
Every time you make a change, save the tune as a separate individual tune. And save the log for each tuning adjustment.
That way they're easy to review and reference. Or, if something goes wonky, it's easy to take a step or two back. Maybe even have the file name easily identifiable to the photos of the plugs. 1, 2, 3, or a, b, c... or whatever.
Slow, methodical changes. Starting from safe, staying on the safe side, and finishing with a safe and slightly conservative tune.
A dyno or track data is helpful in identifying gains produced with changes. Optionally, free accelerometer based "dyno" or "track" or "HP" apps for your phone can be used to identify and log gains/losses... if you can keep wheel spin to a minimum. (Might be helpful to short shift 1st & 2nd)
When gains diminish, back off a step (load the previous tune).
Seems that "AFR in the low 10's when in boost" is not the case at all.
I don't think you should replace the O2 sensor. It's probably just fine.
I would however, get everything to a safe starting place. Lowest boost (maybe even pull the WG spring/s out altogether), low timing, and richer than commanded at all points.
Once you've got the VE table close, but still slightly richer than commanded per the O2 sensor at low boost and low timing, find a stretch of road with little traffic and put a fresh spark plug in #7 (you're gonna want to order a bunch of plugs).
No need to break the sound barrier, be safe. Make a WOT pass, maybe 1st, 2nd, and a bump into 3rd. Pull over immediately and turn the engine off. Pull the plug, inspect and take a couple close up pictures of it (helpful if you make each reading pic identifyable as to what pull it was from. Hash marks on your finger nail or a piece of paper that's in the photo. That way you know what's what if you need to review them later.), put a new one in, review data log, add a degree of timing back in, and make a run back up the road to where you started. Pull over and repeat the process, except make fuel adjustments this time.
Check spark plug, review data log, adjust timing, run up the road
Check spark plug, review data log, adjust VE's, run down the road
Check spark plug, review data log, adjust timing, run up the road
Check spark plug, review data log, adjust VE's, run down the road
Don't push it. Keep everything slightly rich and slightly conservative on timing for whatever kPa is the lowest you can muster.
Then put a light spring in the WG and repeat the whole process over again.
Every time you make a change, save the tune as a separate individual tune. And save the log for each tuning adjustment.
That way they're easy to review and reference. Or, if something goes wonky, it's easy to take a step or two back. Maybe even have the file name easily identifiable to the photos of the plugs. 1, 2, 3, or a, b, c... or whatever.
Slow, methodical changes. Starting from safe, staying on the safe side, and finishing with a safe and slightly conservative tune.
A dyno or track data is helpful in identifying gains produced with changes. Optionally, free accelerometer based "dyno" or "track" or "HP" apps for your phone can be used to identify and log gains/losses... if you can keep wheel spin to a minimum. (Might be helpful to short shift 1st & 2nd)
When gains diminish, back off a step (load the previous tune).
05-23-2017, 12:57 PM
#64
9 Second Club
WOW
Seems that "AFR in the low 10's when in boost" is not the case at all.
I don't think you should replace the O2 sensor. It's probably just fine.
I would however, get everything to a safe starting place. Lowest boost (maybe even pull the WG spring/s out altogether), low timing, and richer than commanded at all points.
Once you've got the VE table close, but still slightly richer than commanded per the O2 sensor at low boost and low timing, find a stretch of road with little traffic and put a fresh spark plug in #7 (you're gonna want to order a bunch of plugs).
No need to break the sound barrier, be safe. Make a WOT pass, maybe 1st, 2nd, and a bump into 3rd. Pull over immediately and turn the engine off. Pull the plug, inspect and take a couple close up pictures of it (helpful if you make each reading pic identifyable as to what pull it was from. Hash marks on your finger nail or a piece of paper that's in the photo. That way you know what's what if you need to review them later.), put a new one in, review data log, add a degree of timing back in, and make a run back up the road to where you started. Pull over and repeat the process, except make fuel adjustments this time.
Check spark plug, review data log, adjust timing, run up the road
Check spark plug, review data log, adjust VE's, run down the road
Check spark plug, review data log, adjust timing, run up the road
Check spark plug, review data log, adjust VE's, run down the road
Don't push it. Keep everything slightly rich and slightly conservative on timing for whatever kPa is the lowest you can muster.
Then put a light spring in the WG and repeat the whole process over again.
Every time you make a change, save the tune as a separate individual tune. And save the log for each tuning adjustment.
That way they're easy to review and reference. Or, if something goes wonky, it's easy to take a step or two back. Maybe even have the file name easily identifiable to the photos of the plugs. 1, 2, 3, or a, b, c... or whatever.
Slow, methodical changes. Starting from safe, staying on the safe side, and finishing with a safe and slightly conservative tune.
A dyno or track data is helpful in identifying gains produced with changes. Optionally, free accelerometer based "dyno" or "track" or "HP" apps for your phone can be used to identify and log gains/losses... if you can keep wheel spin to a minimum. (Might be helpful to short shift 1st & 2nd)
When gains diminish, back off a step (load the previous tune).
Seems that "AFR in the low 10's when in boost" is not the case at all.
I don't think you should replace the O2 sensor. It's probably just fine.
I would however, get everything to a safe starting place. Lowest boost (maybe even pull the WG spring/s out altogether), low timing, and richer than commanded at all points.
Once you've got the VE table close, but still slightly richer than commanded per the O2 sensor at low boost and low timing, find a stretch of road with little traffic and put a fresh spark plug in #7 (you're gonna want to order a bunch of plugs).
No need to break the sound barrier, be safe. Make a WOT pass, maybe 1st, 2nd, and a bump into 3rd. Pull over immediately and turn the engine off. Pull the plug, inspect and take a couple close up pictures of it (helpful if you make each reading pic identifyable as to what pull it was from. Hash marks on your finger nail or a piece of paper that's in the photo. That way you know what's what if you need to review them later.), put a new one in, review data log, add a degree of timing back in, and make a run back up the road to where you started. Pull over and repeat the process, except make fuel adjustments this time.
Check spark plug, review data log, adjust timing, run up the road
Check spark plug, review data log, adjust VE's, run down the road
Check spark plug, review data log, adjust timing, run up the road
Check spark plug, review data log, adjust VE's, run down the road
Don't push it. Keep everything slightly rich and slightly conservative on timing for whatever kPa is the lowest you can muster.
Then put a light spring in the WG and repeat the whole process over again.
Every time you make a change, save the tune as a separate individual tune. And save the log for each tuning adjustment.
That way they're easy to review and reference. Or, if something goes wonky, it's easy to take a step or two back. Maybe even have the file name easily identifiable to the photos of the plugs. 1, 2, 3, or a, b, c... or whatever.
Slow, methodical changes. Starting from safe, staying on the safe side, and finishing with a safe and slightly conservative tune.
A dyno or track data is helpful in identifying gains produced with changes. Optionally, free accelerometer based "dyno" or "track" or "HP" apps for your phone can be used to identify and log gains/losses... if you can keep wheel spin to a minimum. (Might be helpful to short shift 1st & 2nd)
When gains diminish, back off a step (load the previous tune).
05-23-2017, 01:35 PM
#68
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I'll take that as a compliment. And... you're right.
Old enough to know I don't know everything, yet young enough to not always know when to listen.
Young enough to have an ego that get's in my way at times, yet old enough to acknowledge that I have an ego that get's in my way at times.
Old enough to know, the world as I see it, isn't necessarily "the" way it is.
42... or is it 43? I guess I'm old enough to forget things. Better start writing stuff down. And next year I'll probably need some readers to read what I wrote down. Damn it!
Old enough to know I don't know everything, yet young enough to not always know when to listen.
Young enough to have an ego that get's in my way at times, yet old enough to acknowledge that I have an ego that get's in my way at times.
Old enough to know, the world as I see it, isn't necessarily "the" way it is.
42... or is it 43? I guess I'm old enough to forget things. Better start writing stuff down. And next year I'll probably need some readers to read what I wrote down. Damn it!
05-23-2017, 01:51 PM
#70
9 Second Club
I'll take that as a compliment. And... you're right.
Old enough to know I don't know everything, yet young enough to not always know when to listen.
Young enough to have an ego that get's in my way at times, yet old enough to acknowledge that I have an ego that get's in my way at times.
Old enough to know, the world as I see it, isn't necessarily "the" way it is.
42... or is it 43? I guess I'm old enough to forget things. Better start writing stuff down. And next year I'll probably need some readers to read what I wrote down. Damn it!
Old enough to know I don't know everything, yet young enough to not always know when to listen.
Young enough to have an ego that get's in my way at times, yet old enough to acknowledge that I have an ego that get's in my way at times.
Old enough to know, the world as I see it, isn't necessarily "the" way it is.
42... or is it 43? I guess I'm old enough to forget things. Better start writing stuff down. And next year I'll probably need some readers to read what I wrote down. Damn it!
05-23-2017, 01:58 PM
#71
TECH Addict
52 here as well, I've yet to blow a motor in the tuning process, But I hunted down friends acquaintances and bought a lot of beer over the years for guys who were willing to share knowledge.
First ever solo car engine build for me was in High school in 1980, I built a RX3 with a friend and worked over his 12A rotary, built a intake manifold for a 1050 Holley, built a set of headers(Zoomies through the hood.. ) We had a blast in that deathtrap..
First ever solo car engine build for me was in High school in 1980, I built a RX3 with a friend and worked over his 12A rotary, built a intake manifold for a 1050 Holley, built a set of headers(Zoomies through the hood.. ) We had a blast in that deathtrap..
05-23-2017, 03:10 PM
#72
52 here as well, I've yet to blow a motor in the tuning process, But I hunted down friends acquaintances and bought a lot of beer over the years for guys who were willing to share knowledge.
First ever solo car engine build for me was in High school in 1980, I built a RX3 with a friend and worked over his 12A rotary, built a intake manifold for a 1050 Holley, built a set of headers(Zoomies through the hood.. ) We had a blast in that deathtrap..
First ever solo car engine build for me was in High school in 1980, I built a RX3 with a friend and worked over his 12A rotary, built a intake manifold for a 1050 Holley, built a set of headers(Zoomies through the hood.. ) We had a blast in that deathtrap..
05-23-2017, 03:52 PM
#73
52 here as well, I've yet to blow a motor in the tuning process, But I hunted down friends acquaintances and bought a lot of beer over the years for guys who were willing to share knowledge.
First ever solo car engine build for me was in High school in 1980, I built a RX3 with a friend and worked over his 12A rotary, built a intake manifold for a 1050 Holley, built a set of headers(Zoomies through the hood.. ) We had a blast in that deathtrap..
First ever solo car engine build for me was in High school in 1980, I built a RX3 with a friend and worked over his 12A rotary, built a intake manifold for a 1050 Holley, built a set of headers(Zoomies through the hood.. ) We had a blast in that deathtrap..
Sorry OP, I havent thought about that car in years,
05-23-2017, 06:16 PM
#75
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i didnt just put an engine in and expect it to be better. i continued tuning and trying to figure it out myself before asking for help and i didnt say my tune was good. thats why it posted for all to see and get feed back to try to better myself and actually learn. i dont want anyone to do it for me i just want a little help and ive got quite a bit so far that i apreciate. i may be one my 3rd engine but im not scared. if i cook anouther so be it. i still have 2 more before im out. i have a whole bunch of rotted out plow trucks to give there lives for me to learn. it may only have a 4.8 in it now but im fixing things and learning alot and i know ill get it eventually. especially with all the help ive gotten so far. im not looking to become a pro tuner i just like to **** with stuff and see what i can make it do
05-24-2017, 10:03 AM
#76
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i didnt just put an engine in and expect it to be better. i continued tuning and trying to figure it out myself before asking for help and i didnt say my tune was good. thats why it posted for all to see and get feed back to try to better myself and actually learn. i dont want anyone to do it for me i just want a little help and ive got quite a bit so far that i apreciate. i may be one my 3rd engine but im not scared. if i cook anouther so be it. i still have 2 more before im out. i have a whole bunch of rotted out plow trucks to give there lives for me to learn. it may only have a 4.8 in it now but im fixing things and learning alot and i know ill get it eventually. especially with all the help ive gotten so far. im not looking to become a pro tuner i just like to **** with stuff and see what i can make it do
Just dial it way back and methodically sneak up on the tune from the safe side before starting to add boost. Pull several degrees of timing globally, get all the fueling richer than commanded, and slowly, cell by cell, make adjustments until it's within a few % on the rich side of the target before pouring in a little more timing and boost. And add those in slowly and methodically too.
Start safe, keep it safe, and leave it safe.
I'd highly recommend that you verify the timing and account for any offset, especially so if you're going to be street or strip tuning it.
And... take notes. Every change you make and every resultant change in data... write it down.
Ex: Adjusted VE from X to X at X kPa and X rpm, AFR went from X to X. It was X% rich of target and is now X% rich of target.
Last edited by SethU; 05-24-2017 at 10:13 AM.
05-24-2017, 10:16 AM
#77
As everyone has said start low and work your way up noting what your last change was. Something that worked on another car is not guaranteed to work on yours even if it has the same parts. Look at your wideband, look at plugs, listen to the engine, use all tools available to give it what it wants.
Ringland damage is normally 100% tune, I've bent rods and even cranks and not torched a stock piston so they will hold some power. Don't get greedy and the stock bottom can live a long life.
Ringland damage is normally 100% tune, I've bent rods and even cranks and not torched a stock piston so they will hold some power. Don't get greedy and the stock bottom can live a long life.
05-26-2017, 06:15 PM
#78
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I know it's been a bit now but I'm up and running with a 4.8 in the truck and I'm running around 11 in boost at the moment trying to get my timing tuned in. My question is where is a good spot to have the timing mark on the plugs. I guess I never did timing the proper way but I have some fresh plugs and ready to start over and do it right. My question now Is my timing table mass at 1.20 and I'm running up to 1.40 so how do i tune thay high. Does it just use the 1.20?
