Need a little buying advise
07-11-2017, 02:37 PM
#21
I would want headers... specifically designed for rear mount setup. Thick, like cast, but separated ports, tuned to improve engine VE out of boost, like a stock engine would benefit Coated/wrapped defeats the cooling aspect.
It doesn't exist but it would be optimal over any brick-looking cast manifold OEM can come up with.
It doesn't exist but it would be optimal over any brick-looking cast manifold OEM can come up with.
07-11-2017, 05:06 PM
#22
I'd go front mount. It's going to be well worth it in the end. Plus you can sell the headers and recoup some funds. Last bit of advise is dont listen to anything posted by king talon, he's just a keyboard jockey troll with no idea what he's talking about.
07-11-2017, 05:16 PM
#23
I would want headers... specifically designed for rear mount setup. Thick, like cast, but separated ports, tuned to improve engine VE out of boost, like a stock engine would benefit Coated/wrapped defeats the cooling aspect.
It doesn't exist but it would be optimal over any brick-looking cast manifold OEM can come up with.
It doesn't exist but it would be optimal over any brick-looking cast manifold OEM can come up with.
07-11-2017, 05:25 PM
#24
Yeah the Ohio Boys and everyone else running 8s or better on stock manifolds haven't a clue what they're doing....they should switch to your super manifold that doesn't exist. Of all the deficiencies to pick on, you choose the OEM manifolds that have been proven to well over 1000hp, really? Geez at least pick on something of interest like the crap 10 bolt or 4l60e or the fact that front mount turbo kits have crap space under the hood unless you relocate stuff and move to pusher fans. Geez.
I am not saying truck manifolds do not work. Even I am using them on my single. They are easy. I am only saying that if there was any effort to developing a usable header design it would outperform the stock manifold design, no question there. It probably doesn't exist because the oem manifold solution is so easy, and works well enough.
I thought the oem manifolds were also so easy because of them "flipping", which you would not need to do in a rear mount setup. IMO I would try high quality header solution before using oem manifolds on a rear mount, instinctively. Its not like they are hard to change if you are doing all of that fab work anyways, you have the tools and materials to go back and forth at whim. Maybe try both and get some actual data first, then decide.
07-11-2017, 05:36 PM
#25
I've always been of the mindset that full length or even mid-length headers are designed for N/A applications for improved exhaust scavenging.
Isn't that the purpose of the equal length tubes and single collector, to provide a sort of vacuum on the cylinders which aren't firing for better cylinder filling?
It seems you'd lose that with a turbo application where volume and velocity are more important so a stock manifold would be ideal.
Maybe I'm off in left field lol.
Isn't that the purpose of the equal length tubes and single collector, to provide a sort of vacuum on the cylinders which aren't firing for better cylinder filling?
It seems you'd lose that with a turbo application where volume and velocity are more important so a stock manifold would be ideal.
Maybe I'm off in left field lol.
07-11-2017, 06:22 PM
#26
I should also mention, the headers in the vehicle I mentioned earlier are nothing special...... nor are they even wrapped. And no, it's not some wild mountain motor powering the car.... just a mild headed 383. I guess what I'm getting at is, headers will work fine. Not theorizing, I've seen it work..... live in the flesh. But for whatever reason, people will still say nope..... no good lol. And the example given isn't a Larry Larson type of "street car"..... it's a real deal street car. Not some tube chassis shelled out race car that barely idles.
07-11-2017, 09:09 PM
#27
I've always been of the mindset that full length or even mid-length headers are designed for N/A applications for improved exhaust scavenging.
Isn't that the purpose of the equal length tubes and single collector, to provide a sort of vacuum on the cylinders which aren't firing for better cylinder filling?
It seems you'd lose that with a turbo application where volume and velocity are more important so a stock manifold would be ideal.
Maybe I'm off in left field lol.
Isn't that the purpose of the equal length tubes and single collector, to provide a sort of vacuum on the cylinders which aren't firing for better cylinder filling?
It seems you'd lose that with a turbo application where volume and velocity are more important so a stock manifold would be ideal.
Maybe I'm off in left field lol.
07-12-2017, 12:08 AM
#28
So this is exactly it- lets say that "all forms of acoustic and velocity tuning is possible" except that lets say acoustic tuning is ALWAYS important, even when you add a turbo. Look at any high performance custom turbo manifold (cough full race) and tell me they didn't try to merge that exhaust nicely. Of course there are sound waves in the exhaust system and corners/changing directions to make. And, just because we add a turbo doesn't mean the sound stops, so it can always be used if we can find a way. Even if we are not sound tuning (runner length, generally, but could be louvers/surface changes to the tubes) in the exhaust manifold there is still something to be said for the way it merges with exhaust from other cylinders, its speed and any disturbances all matter in the final outcome. And finally, what determines an gas molecules velocity? is it temperature?
07-12-2017, 12:13 AM
#29
I should also mention, the headers in the vehicle I mentioned earlier are nothing special...... nor are they even wrapped. And no, it's not some wild mountain motor powering the car.... just a mild headed 383. I guess what I'm getting at is, headers will work fine. Not theorizing, I've seen it work..... live in the flesh. But for whatever reason, people will still say nope..... no good lol. And the example given isn't a Larry Larson type of "street car"..... it's a real deal street car. Not some tube chassis shelled out race car that barely idles.
I'd imagine if you did a merge into a flex coupler and solid mounted the turbo in the bed then there would be no weight on the headers and it would be a non-issue?
07-12-2017, 01:45 AM
#30
Energy in any form can be extracted to some purpose.
Energy exists in many forms.
Temperature is energy
Motion is energy, kinetic energy based on mass.
Sound is waves in the air with higher and lower pressure areas
The high bands of air pressure can be used to increase cylinder fill at a specific instant in time (frequency) and is used to define engine operating range expected RPM In OEM applications, that is called acoustic tuning, and accounts for Volumetric efficiency above 100% being possible in naturally aspirated engines. Low pressure bands can be applied to exhaust valves to assist with scavenging as well through acoustic tuning.
Motion of enough air molecules, fast enough, causes it to behave differently. More like water, more difficult to change direction, and it gains a momentum in some spaces. With properly designed ports, motion and momentum of pulses of air the engine produces helps maximize efficiency (economy and power) of engine exhaust production. The turbocharger invention allows us to focus more on the velocity and temperature aspect and less on the acoustic aspects. That does not mean there are no acoustic aspects; it just means that we can pick and choose which elements of energy transfer to prioritize. The most important in turbo applications is the temperature and kinetic motion of air molecules, both inlet and exhaust sides.
Energy exists in many forms.
Temperature is energy
Motion is energy, kinetic energy based on mass.
Sound is waves in the air with higher and lower pressure areas
The high bands of air pressure can be used to increase cylinder fill at a specific instant in time (frequency) and is used to define engine operating range expected RPM In OEM applications, that is called acoustic tuning, and accounts for Volumetric efficiency above 100% being possible in naturally aspirated engines. Low pressure bands can be applied to exhaust valves to assist with scavenging as well through acoustic tuning.
Motion of enough air molecules, fast enough, causes it to behave differently. More like water, more difficult to change direction, and it gains a momentum in some spaces. With properly designed ports, motion and momentum of pulses of air the engine produces helps maximize efficiency (economy and power) of engine exhaust production. The turbocharger invention allows us to focus more on the velocity and temperature aspect and less on the acoustic aspects. That does not mean there are no acoustic aspects; it just means that we can pick and choose which elements of energy transfer to prioritize. The most important in turbo applications is the temperature and kinetic motion of air molecules, both inlet and exhaust sides.
Thats awesome.
07-12-2017, 06:43 AM
#33
I would want headers... specifically designed for rear mount setup. Thick, like cast, but separated ports, tuned to improve engine VE out of boost, like a stock engine would benefit Coated/wrapped defeats the cooling aspect.
It doesn't exist but it would be optimal over any brick-looking cast manifold OEM can come up with.
It doesn't exist but it would be optimal over any brick-looking cast manifold OEM can come up with.
I am not saying truck manifolds do not work. Even I am using them on my single. They are easy. I am only saying that if there was any effort to developing a usable header design it would outperform the stock manifold design, no question there. It probably doesn't exist because the oem manifold solution is so easy, and works well enough.
I thought the oem manifolds were also so easy because of them "flipping", which you would not need to do in a rear mount setup. IMO I would try high quality header solution before using oem manifolds on a rear mount, instinctively. Its not like they are hard to change if you are doing all of that fab work anyways, you have the tools and materials to go back and forth at whim. Maybe try both and get some actual data first, then decide.
I thought the oem manifolds were also so easy because of them "flipping", which you would not need to do in a rear mount setup. IMO I would try high quality header solution before using oem manifolds on a rear mount, instinctively. Its not like they are hard to change if you are doing all of that fab work anyways, you have the tools and materials to go back and forth at whim. Maybe try both and get some actual data first, then decide.
So this is exactly it- lets say that "all forms of acoustic and velocity tuning is possible" except that lets say acoustic tuning is ALWAYS important, even when you add a turbo. Look at any high performance custom turbo manifold (cough full race) and tell me they didn't try to merge that exhaust nicely. Of course there are sound waves in the exhaust system and corners/changing directions to make. And, just because we add a turbo doesn't mean the sound stops, so it can always be used if we can find a way. Even if we are not sound tuning (runner length, generally, but could be louvers/surface changes to the tubes) in the exhaust manifold there is still something to be said for the way it merges with exhaust from other cylinders, its speed and any disturbances all matter in the final outcome. And finally, what determines an gas molecules velocity? is it temperature?
Energy in any form can be extracted to some purpose.
Energy exists in many forms.
Temperature is energy
Motion is energy, kinetic energy based on mass.
Sound is waves in the air with higher and lower pressure areas
The high bands of air pressure can be used to increase cylinder fill at a specific instant in time (frequency) and is used to define engine operating range expected RPM In OEM applications, that is called acoustic tuning, and accounts for Volumetric efficiency above 100% being possible in naturally aspirated engines. Low pressure bands can be applied to exhaust valves to assist with scavenging as well through acoustic tuning.
Motion of enough air molecules, fast enough, causes it to behave differently. More like water, more difficult to change direction, and it gains a momentum in some spaces. With properly designed ports, motion and momentum of pulses of air the engine produces helps maximize efficiency (economy and power) of engine exhaust production. The turbocharger invention allows us to focus more on the velocity and temperature aspect and less on the acoustic aspects. That does not mean there are no acoustic aspects; it just means that we can pick and choose which elements of energy transfer to prioritize. The most important in turbo applications is the temperature and kinetic motion of air molecules, both inlet and exhaust sides.
Energy exists in many forms.
Temperature is energy
Motion is energy, kinetic energy based on mass.
Sound is waves in the air with higher and lower pressure areas
The high bands of air pressure can be used to increase cylinder fill at a specific instant in time (frequency) and is used to define engine operating range expected RPM In OEM applications, that is called acoustic tuning, and accounts for Volumetric efficiency above 100% being possible in naturally aspirated engines. Low pressure bands can be applied to exhaust valves to assist with scavenging as well through acoustic tuning.
Motion of enough air molecules, fast enough, causes it to behave differently. More like water, more difficult to change direction, and it gains a momentum in some spaces. With properly designed ports, motion and momentum of pulses of air the engine produces helps maximize efficiency (economy and power) of engine exhaust production. The turbocharger invention allows us to focus more on the velocity and temperature aspect and less on the acoustic aspects. That does not mean there are no acoustic aspects; it just means that we can pick and choose which elements of energy transfer to prioritize. The most important in turbo applications is the temperature and kinetic motion of air molecules, both inlet and exhaust sides.
Stock truck manifolds went 6's at over 200mph 10 years ago. How much better can "custom designed turbo headers" possibly be? I think they look beautiful and in the case of certain engines (2jz for example) can help sound and performance but for these engines we don't need them because we have great flowing stock manifolds. Look at all the sloppy mechanics stuff that's literally pipes welded together at 90° angles and they still run great. Kinda disproves the whole theory IMO.
07-12-2017, 07:15 AM
#34
While there might be some sound (no pun intended) reasoning and theory behind everything you've said, the many setups posted here, and everywhere else online that run great numbers or dyno what they should with terribly designed hot sides or stock manifolds or a combination of both say something else. From what I've seen through different setup designs on here and elsewhere, the real ticket to turbo performance is a properly sized turbo and then keeping the exhaust as hot as possible until it gets to the turbo. Nothing else really matters for a street car.
Stock truck manifolds went 6's at over 200mph 10 years ago. How much better can "custom designed turbo headers" possibly be? I think they look beautiful and in the case of certain engines (2jz for example) can help sound and performance but for these engines we don't need them because we have great flowing stock manifolds. Look at all the sloppy mechanics stuff that's literally pipes welded together at 90° angles and they still run great. Kinda disproves the whole theory IMO.
Stock truck manifolds went 6's at over 200mph 10 years ago. How much better can "custom designed turbo headers" possibly be? I think they look beautiful and in the case of certain engines (2jz for example) can help sound and performance but for these engines we don't need them because we have great flowing stock manifolds. Look at all the sloppy mechanics stuff that's literally pipes welded together at 90° angles and they still run great. Kinda disproves the whole theory IMO.
07-12-2017, 05:29 PM
#37
While there might be some sound (no pun intended) reasoning and theory behind everything you've said, the many setups posted here, and everywhere else online that run great numbers or dyno what they should with terribly designed hot sides or stock manifolds or a combination of both say something else. From what I've seen through different setup designs on here and elsewhere, the real ticket to turbo performance is a properly sized turbo and then keeping the exhaust as hot as possible until it gets to the turbo. Nothing else really matters for a street car.
Stock truck manifolds went 6's at over 200mph 10 years ago. How much better can "custom designed turbo headers" possibly be? I think they look beautiful and in the case of certain engines (2jz for example) can help sound and performance but for these engines we don't need them because we have great flowing stock manifolds. Look at all the sloppy mechanics stuff that's literally pipes welded together at 90° angles and they still run great. Kinda disproves the whole theory IMO.
Stock truck manifolds went 6's at over 200mph 10 years ago. How much better can "custom designed turbo headers" possibly be? I think they look beautiful and in the case of certain engines (2jz for example) can help sound and performance but for these engines we don't need them because we have great flowing stock manifolds. Look at all the sloppy mechanics stuff that's literally pipes welded together at 90° angles and they still run great. Kinda disproves the whole theory IMO.
Power is not the only desirable outcome, in some situations, you will require economy as well. Something like the shape of a tube can affect economy, will affect it. We don't always race for or towards economy, but some do (I prefer 30mpg with my 500 horsepower, yes).
07-12-2017, 08:37 PM
#38
ok that's enough, you can get off your pedestal now. In what alternate universe do you actually bring practice on this site? Don't post some random Ricer/4 banger crap that you've worked on that you assume translates into how to properly design and run an LS. What actual design/build/execution/racing have you done on an LS based motor, truck engines included? PS....I've seen your junkyard thread with pictures asking what some of the sensors are on the motor
07-13-2017, 04:33 PM
#40
ok that's enough, you can get off your pedestal now. In what alternate universe do you actually bring practice on this site? Don't post some random Ricer/4 banger crap that you've worked on that you assume translates into how to properly design and run an LS. What actual design/build/execution/racing have you done on an LS based motor, truck engines included? PS....I've seen your junkyard thread with pictures asking what some of the sensors are on the motor
I am a poor student trying to tap into the power of the LS platform. All engine operate with similar principles, a "piston engine" I have seen enough to avoid many common mistakes/myths, and science/math background helps see more at once.
I saw my first LS engine in person January of this year. 5/17/17 it had about 100 miles on it, in a swap. Today, over 300 miles. In a backyard, on grass and dirt, with regular hand tools, and an engine lift at least 15 years old, if I can do it anybody can do it. Everything I could stop to take a picture of, turned into a tech picture, and was posted to LS1tech for reference. Then, by putting mileage on it, I can find out if it was done properly, if it will last, and make reports to help others make decisions, hopefully adding to the SBE reliability list and ultimately a completed build thread I can walk away from. My random 5.3 engine going 20,000 miles would be remarkable, let alone 100k at some significant 450-550 rwhp as a daily driver at 30mpg, actually reliable like that for what you pay is... well lets just say I can't believe I can afford to go that fast with just plain old gasoline with nearly no income.
I attached some of tech pics, helpful reminders from the FSM or proven methods. I'd like to eventually post all the pics somewhere but right now storage space isn't a priority, tuna fish and chicken is. Internet posting is fun, it is popcorn, it can be helpful also. My posting would never be intended to hurt or add untruth on purpose but of course enough people read the same thing 1 of them eventually has to take it the wrong way.