Turbo and PCV?
#41
One of the slicker set ups I have seen ran check valves into the downstream exhaust for this. No smell, no oil to drain or clean and it got burnt up in the exhaust. I cant recall where the valves came from but they were 10an or so welded onto the pipe. One per bank. Worked slick
I suppose the only way to know that would be to try it
Turbos hate mufflers, or exhaust longer than a foot. Most of the builds I paid attention too were pretty wild and had very little in way of muffler or exhaust restriction. IIRC the car I saw those valves on had dual 4" or maybe 3.5", regardless it was a big system with borla straight throughs or hooker maxflows, something like that. A lot of guys run maxflows or straight muffs on turbo set ups
Turbos hate mufflers, or exhaust longer than a foot. Most of the builds I paid attention too were pretty wild and had very little in way of muffler or exhaust restriction. IIRC the car I saw those valves on had dual 4" or maybe 3.5", regardless it was a big system with borla straight throughs or hooker maxflows, something like that. A lot of guys run maxflows or straight muffs on turbo set ups
That's how mine was, dual 3" with borla mufflers cut off at the axle.
I'm not a fan but I also have a cutout so when I know I'm gonna get stupid I open it.
I'm currently running a full 3" system with a magnaflow in the factory location but even when its closed it just kills the performance, its a must have though for long road trips and when my little dude is on the car with me.
So I found this Evac Kit and am wondering if I ran one from each valve cover and into the exhaust pipe just upstream of the cutout, maybe on each side of the pipe?
http://www.jegs.com/i/Mr-Gasket/720/6002/10002/-1
I'm not a fan but I also have a cutout so when I know I'm gonna get stupid I open it.
I'm currently running a full 3" system with a magnaflow in the factory location but even when its closed it just kills the performance, its a must have though for long road trips and when my little dude is on the car with me.
So I found this Evac Kit and am wondering if I ran one from each valve cover and into the exhaust pipe just upstream of the cutout, maybe on each side of the pipe?
http://www.jegs.com/i/Mr-Gasket/720/6002/10002/-1
I don't know anyone running a vacuum pump on a street car and have heard they can cause longevity issues on piston wear and what not.
Let alone the cost of the setup plus fabricating all the brackets that would be required.
It doesn't make a lot of sense to make that kind of investment when so many are running a basic catch can setup with good results.
I'm going to research this idea a little more since I'm currently revamping my PCV system too.
I feel like I've read that someone did this on this forum but can't for the life of me remember who it was.
Let alone the cost of the setup plus fabricating all the brackets that would be required.
It doesn't make a lot of sense to make that kind of investment when so many are running a basic catch can setup with good results.
I'm going to research this idea a little more since I'm currently revamping my PCV system too.
I feel like I've read that someone did this on this forum but can't for the life of me remember who it was.
Since your doing a turbo the setup I have could work but may create a problem with the location of the breather can with respect to the turbo. 3 Window's setup would be the direction to go. Also if your going to pull vacuum from the intake through a can then you will need to go with a sealed catch can, not breather cans. Pulling vacuum from the intake through a breather can will draw in non metered air which can cause tuning issues.
I have the ability to run a sealed catch can from the valley cover through the can and into the intake manifold .The LS2 valley cover has a built in PCV and in stock form a single hose connected them.
I've been running the breather can without issues and after 3,000 miles my oil still has clarity. Engines create oil vapors no getting around that and those vapors escape through the breather can and past the rings during combustion.
Pulling crankcase vapors via a sealed catch can and from a valve cover to the throttle body only introduces additional oil vapors into your intake manifold ultimately weakening the fuel charge which can cost you HP and eventually over time gunk up your intake manifold, your injectors and valves with oil deposits. And who wants that!
I've been running the breather can without issues and after 3,000 miles my oil still has clarity. Engines create oil vapors no getting around that and those vapors escape through the breather can and past the rings during combustion.
Pulling crankcase vapors via a sealed catch can and from a valve cover to the throttle body only introduces additional oil vapors into your intake manifold ultimately weakening the fuel charge which can cost you HP and eventually over time gunk up your intake manifold, your injectors and valves with oil deposits. And who wants that!
Interesting.....
#42
Banned
iTrader: (1)
I've inspected and purchased over 5000 engines from foreign countries. The ones with altered PCV systems or removed PCV systems are always disgusting, gunked up, pieces of ****. Even with just 44k miles I won't touch it.
You know how I can tell if an engine is worth a **** or not just by looking at it for an instant? I look how the PCV system is routed, and what kind of air filter is on it.
It isn't just a measure of engine health, it is a measure of owner's ability to deal with engine configurations, a measure of knowledge with mechanics.
Its like looking at a person naked and being able to tell if they eat right and lift weight or just let their own bodies decide how things should be and accept whatever happens.
lrn2pcv
You know how I can tell if an engine is worth a **** or not just by looking at it for an instant? I look how the PCV system is routed, and what kind of air filter is on it.
It isn't just a measure of engine health, it is a measure of owner's ability to deal with engine configurations, a measure of knowledge with mechanics.
Its like looking at a person naked and being able to tell if they eat right and lift weight or just let their own bodies decide how things should be and accept whatever happens.
lrn2pcv
Last edited by kingtal0n; 09-23-2017 at 09:03 AM.
#43
TECH Addict
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Originally Posted by kingtal0n
I've inspected and purchased over 5000 engines from foreign countries. The ones with altered PCV systems or removed PCV systems are always disgusting, gunked up, pieces of ****. Even with just 44k miles I won't touch it.
You know how I can tell if an engine is worth a **** or not just by looking at it for an instant? I look how the PCV system is routed, and what kind of air filter is on it.
It isn't just a measure of engine health, it is a measure of owner's ability to deal with engine configurations, a measure of knowledge with mechanics.
Its like looking at a person naked and being able to tell if they eat right and lift weight or just let their own bodies decide how things should be and accept whatever happens.
lrn2pcv
You know how I can tell if an engine is worth a **** or not just by looking at it for an instant? I look how the PCV system is routed, and what kind of air filter is on it.
It isn't just a measure of engine health, it is a measure of owner's ability to deal with engine configurations, a measure of knowledge with mechanics.
Its like looking at a person naked and being able to tell if they eat right and lift weight or just let their own bodies decide how things should be and accept whatever happens.
lrn2pcv
#45
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I have searched and read about this alot. I can't seem to find any solid info or agreement, like most things I research
I have a S475 with a SBE 6.0
I've just finally got to where I can start getting into a little boost. (Not sure how much because I had to send my AEM boost gauge back for repairs today, it was bad right out of the box). My best guess is around 5 to 7 lbs as I used the lighter springs in my wastegates....
I noticed today that The O ring under the oil fill tube was bulged out..... Also noticed that I'm getting some oil in the charge pipes....... I have had the PCV hooked up UNTIL I noticed this today and I have now disconnected it and am venting to atmosphere.
I have read that this will possibly give you that stinky oil smell and you will no longer have the PCV pulling water condensation out of the oil......
Can someone please break it down into complete noob terms for this novice 1st time turbo guy?
My options are either vent to atmosphere or setup a catch can right????? And you shouldn't use a PCV system when you have boost from a turbo or supercharger because you are starting to pressurize the crankcase???? Do I have this right?
Please you guys, take me to school on this issue, I want to learn.
I have a S475 with a SBE 6.0
I've just finally got to where I can start getting into a little boost. (Not sure how much because I had to send my AEM boost gauge back for repairs today, it was bad right out of the box). My best guess is around 5 to 7 lbs as I used the lighter springs in my wastegates....
I noticed today that The O ring under the oil fill tube was bulged out..... Also noticed that I'm getting some oil in the charge pipes....... I have had the PCV hooked up UNTIL I noticed this today and I have now disconnected it and am venting to atmosphere.
I have read that this will possibly give you that stinky oil smell and you will no longer have the PCV pulling water condensation out of the oil......
Can someone please break it down into complete noob terms for this novice 1st time turbo guy?
My options are either vent to atmosphere or setup a catch can right????? And you shouldn't use a PCV system when you have boost from a turbo or supercharger because you are starting to pressurize the crankcase???? Do I have this right?
Please you guys, take me to school on this issue, I want to learn.
#46
Nothing wrong with venting to the atmosphere. If you want to do a catch can, that won't hurt either. I've seen some of the recommendations in regards to where to get one here in this thread, but if you are on a budget...or simply value your money, there are cheaper alternatives that do the exact same thing.
#47
TECH Junkie
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This is the catch can I bought to use. Closed system. Regarding tuning although I have not experienced this iirc its possible a vented system coul mess up MAP values. I did run a vented breather on my first LS1 for a few years and its still running over ten years later so there is no sense in longevity concerns but it was MAF tuned so maybe thats why there are no issues. Anyways heres the can
http://www.saikoumichi.com/Stage1_LS1_page.html
http://www.saikoumichi.com/Stage1_LS1_page.html
#48
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Engines came 44 at a time in high cube containers from Japan since 2001 to 2008 and I was there when they are installed as a fair portion of them went into cars here in America, sometimes as swaps and sometimes as a way to get the original right hand drive vehicles back to operating condition (they are taken apart before leaving Japan to fool customs because complete cars are not allowed here from Japan) so it was essential to inspect each and then wire and tune them (its why I got so good/fast at doing engine swaps without ever having seen the engine before) I did this as a volunteer experience
I have everything to prove this existed: bills of lading, skyline motorex documents, proof of insurance and registration for RHD vehicles in Florida, a document from the dept. homeland security showing seizure of right hand drive vehicle, thousands of pictures of the swaps and cars with notorized bill of sale from their new owners.
I don't need to come on the internet and tell lies. there is enough of that already. So lets look at what we know for 100% Fact even if you don't believe any of the above:
Truth: Every automotive manufacturer in the world includes some form of PCV on their engine since like 1960's (maybe even before, I don't know) and that has never changed. Think of all the things that HAVE changed... basically every single part in every engine from then till now has changed. Every gasket, nut, part, pan, manifold, clearance, oil, we even got EFI and 7speed transmissions now. Everything has been redesigned and upgraded for the demands and efficiency of the future. Everything except....
the necessity of PCV systems
It was created and deemed essential before most of us were born and that never changed even with all the knowledge and science we have today.
For you to come along now without any engineering background (I must assume this because otherwise you would know better...) and modify or remove the PCV system without fully understanding what it does is classic, human error.
edit: just be clear I was a volunteer for these activities at various locations
Last edited by kingtal0n; 09-24-2017 at 10:02 AM.
#49
I had crank case vent problems on a turbo LT1 i built years ago. I had over pressure causing a mess of oil leaks. I ended up running both valve covers to a sealed catch can with 2 ports. The valve cover lines merged and went to one port. The other port we to the down pipe to use as a vacuum source. It solved all my oil leak issues. The morroso kit i bought came with one way valves to prevent back pressure.
I just did the same setup on my LQ4 build.
I just did the same setup on my LQ4 build.
#50
Engines came 44 at a time in high cube containers from Japan since 2001 to 2008 and installed a fair portion of them into cars here in America, sometimes as swaps and sometimes as a way to get the original right hand drive vehicles back to operating condition (they are taken apart before leaving Japan to fool customs because complete cars are not allowed here from Japan) so it was essential to inspect each and then wire and tune them (its why I got so good/fast at doing engine swaps without ever having seen the engine before)
I have everything that comes with the business: bills of lading, skyline motorex documents, proof of insurance and registration for RHD vehicles in Florida, a document from the dept. homeland security showing seizure of right hand drive vehicle, thousands of pictures of the swaps and cars with notorized bill of sale from their new owners.
I don't need to come on the internet and tell lies. there is enough of that already. So lets look at what we know for 100% Fact even if you don't believe any of the above:
Truth: Every automotive manufacturer in the world includes some form of PCV on their engine since like 1960's (maybe even before, I don't know) and that has never changed. Think of all the things that HAVE changed... basically every single part in every engine from then till now has changed. Every gasket, nut, part, pan, manifold, clearance, oil, we even got EFI and 7speed transmissions now. Everything has been redesigned and upgraded for the demands and efficiency of the future. Everything except.... the necessity of PCV systems. It was created and deemed essential before most of us were born and that never changed even with all the knowledge and science we have today.
For you to come along now without any engineering background (next you will say I don't have any and demand proof... PM me for my degrees and yes I am beyond a master of science) and modify or remove the PCV system without fully understanding what it does is classic, human error.
I have everything that comes with the business: bills of lading, skyline motorex documents, proof of insurance and registration for RHD vehicles in Florida, a document from the dept. homeland security showing seizure of right hand drive vehicle, thousands of pictures of the swaps and cars with notorized bill of sale from their new owners.
I don't need to come on the internet and tell lies. there is enough of that already. So lets look at what we know for 100% Fact even if you don't believe any of the above:
Truth: Every automotive manufacturer in the world includes some form of PCV on their engine since like 1960's (maybe even before, I don't know) and that has never changed. Think of all the things that HAVE changed... basically every single part in every engine from then till now has changed. Every gasket, nut, part, pan, manifold, clearance, oil, we even got EFI and 7speed transmissions now. Everything has been redesigned and upgraded for the demands and efficiency of the future. Everything except.... the necessity of PCV systems. It was created and deemed essential before most of us were born and that never changed even with all the knowledge and science we have today.
For you to come along now without any engineering background (next you will say I don't have any and demand proof... PM me for my degrees and yes I am beyond a master of science) and modify or remove the PCV system without fully understanding what it does is classic, human error.
#51
TECH Junkie
iTrader: (9)
Engines came 44 at a time in high cube containers from Japan since 2001 to 2008 and installed a fair portion of them into cars here in America, sometimes as swaps and sometimes as a way to get the original right hand drive vehicles back to operating condition (they are taken apart before leaving Japan to fool customs because complete cars are not allowed here from Japan) so it was essential to inspect each and then wire and tune them (its why I got so good/fast at doing engine swaps without ever having seen the engine before)
I have everything that comes with the business: bills of lading, skyline motorex documents, proof of insurance and registration for RHD vehicles in Florida, a document from the dept. homeland security showing seizure of right hand drive vehicle, thousands of pictures of the swaps and cars with notorized bill of sale from their new owners.
I don't need to come on the internet and tell lies. there is enough of that already. So lets look at what we know for 100% Fact even if you don't believe any of the above:
Truth: Every automotive manufacturer in the world includes some form of PCV on their engine since like 1960's (maybe even before, I don't know) and that has never changed. Think of all the things that HAVE changed... basically every single part in every engine from then till now has changed. Every gasket, nut, part, pan, manifold, clearance, oil, we even got EFI and 7speed transmissions now. Everything has been redesigned and upgraded for the demands and efficiency of the future. Everything except....
the necessity of PCV systems
It was created and deemed essential before most of us were born and that never changed even with all the knowledge and science we have today.
For you to come along now without any engineering background (I must assume this because otherwise you would know better...) and modify or remove the PCV system without fully understanding what it does is classic, human error.
I have everything that comes with the business: bills of lading, skyline motorex documents, proof of insurance and registration for RHD vehicles in Florida, a document from the dept. homeland security showing seizure of right hand drive vehicle, thousands of pictures of the swaps and cars with notorized bill of sale from their new owners.
I don't need to come on the internet and tell lies. there is enough of that already. So lets look at what we know for 100% Fact even if you don't believe any of the above:
Truth: Every automotive manufacturer in the world includes some form of PCV on their engine since like 1960's (maybe even before, I don't know) and that has never changed. Think of all the things that HAVE changed... basically every single part in every engine from then till now has changed. Every gasket, nut, part, pan, manifold, clearance, oil, we even got EFI and 7speed transmissions now. Everything has been redesigned and upgraded for the demands and efficiency of the future. Everything except....
the necessity of PCV systems
It was created and deemed essential before most of us were born and that never changed even with all the knowledge and science we have today.
For you to come along now without any engineering background (I must assume this because otherwise you would know better...) and modify or remove the PCV system without fully understanding what it does is classic, human error.
#52
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Truth: Every automotive manufacturer in the world includes some form of PCV on their engine since like 1960's (maybe even before, I don't know) and that has never changed. Think of all the things that HAVE changed... basically every single part in every engine from then till now has changed. Every gasket, nut, part, pan, manifold, clearance, oil, we even got EFI and 7speed transmissions now. Everything has been redesigned and upgraded for the demands and efficiency of the future. Everything except....
the necessity of PCV systems
It was created and deemed essential before most of us were born and that never changed even with all the knowledge and science we have today.
For you to come along now without any engineering background (I must assume this because otherwise you would know better...) and modify or remove the PCV system without fully understanding what it does is classic, human error.
#53
Banned
iTrader: (1)
Dude you are forgetting one very important detail that debunks your ENTIRE argument. Auto manufacturers are regulated. Vehicles and their emissions systems are regulated. You are arguing that closed PCVs are best? Nope, they are mandated, no more, no less. You are a smart one sided thinker which makes your answers/arguments pretty silly.
#55
11 Second Club
iTrader: (3)
Engines came 44 at a time in high cube containers from Japan since 2001 to 2008 and I was there when they are installed as a fair portion of them went into cars here in America, sometimes as swaps and sometimes as a way to get the original right hand drive vehicles back to operating condition (they are taken apart before leaving Japan to fool customs because complete cars are not allowed here from Japan) so it was essential to inspect each and then wire and tune them (its why I got so good/fast at doing engine swaps without ever having seen the engine before) I did this as a volunteer experience
I have everything to prove this existed: bills of lading, skyline motorex documents, proof of insurance and registration for RHD vehicles in Florida, a document from the dept. homeland security showing seizure of right hand drive vehicle, thousands of pictures of the swaps and cars with notorized bill of sale from their new owners.
I don't need to come on the internet and tell lies. there is enough of that already. So lets look at what we know for 100% Fact even if you don't believe any of the above:
Truth: Every automotive manufacturer in the world includes some form of PCV on their engine since like 1960's (maybe even before, I don't know) and that has never changed. Think of all the things that HAVE changed... basically every single part in every engine from then till now has changed. Every gasket, nut, part, pan, manifold, clearance, oil, we even got EFI and 7speed transmissions now. Everything has been redesigned and upgraded for the demands and efficiency of the future. Everything except....
the necessity of PCV systems
It was created and deemed essential before most of us were born and that never changed even with all the knowledge and science we have today.
For you to come along now without any engineering background (I must assume this because otherwise you would know better...) and modify or remove the PCV system without fully understanding what it does is classic, human error.
edit: just be clear I was a volunteer for these activities at various locations
I have everything to prove this existed: bills of lading, skyline motorex documents, proof of insurance and registration for RHD vehicles in Florida, a document from the dept. homeland security showing seizure of right hand drive vehicle, thousands of pictures of the swaps and cars with notorized bill of sale from their new owners.
I don't need to come on the internet and tell lies. there is enough of that already. So lets look at what we know for 100% Fact even if you don't believe any of the above:
Truth: Every automotive manufacturer in the world includes some form of PCV on their engine since like 1960's (maybe even before, I don't know) and that has never changed. Think of all the things that HAVE changed... basically every single part in every engine from then till now has changed. Every gasket, nut, part, pan, manifold, clearance, oil, we even got EFI and 7speed transmissions now. Everything has been redesigned and upgraded for the demands and efficiency of the future. Everything except....
the necessity of PCV systems
It was created and deemed essential before most of us were born and that never changed even with all the knowledge and science we have today.
For you to come along now without any engineering background (I must assume this because otherwise you would know better...) and modify or remove the PCV system without fully understanding what it does is classic, human error.
edit: just be clear I was a volunteer for these activities at various locations
And guess what those are we see on those turbo motors. BREATHER CANS!
#57
Banned
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[QUOTE=cam;19731864]Easy killer
I apologize for caring so much about spreading useful engine health knowledge, for if I continued to allow the propagated misconception that PCV was only a government mandated, restriction EPA sentence, and can be done away with easily, then I would be doing a disservice to my fellow human brothers and sisters.
For by this logic we shall all remove our PCV equipment in states with no emissions laws, such as Florida. Everybody in Florida should immediately buy a brand new car and remove any such PCV devices.
However, if we all do that, the engine at 45k would look more like 150k especially if any oil change interval were neglected. This is not what we want under the hood.
I apologize for caring so much about spreading useful engine health knowledge, for if I continued to allow the propagated misconception that PCV was only a government mandated, restriction EPA sentence, and can be done away with easily, then I would be doing a disservice to my fellow human brothers and sisters.
For by this logic we shall all remove our PCV equipment in states with no emissions laws, such as Florida. Everybody in Florida should immediately buy a brand new car and remove any such PCV devices.
However, if we all do that, the engine at 45k would look more like 150k especially if any oil change interval were neglected. This is not what we want under the hood.
#58
Banned
iTrader: (1)
If you are the type to put 3k on an engine then build another one etc... then obviously you won't care about the long-term effects of pcv neglect.
Even if you don't care about the engine health long term, there are still horsepower benefits to vacuum pump driven PCV, and there are still oil control benefits to having intake manifold driven PCV (the engine is less likely to leak). And there are ring seal benefits for both. The list goes on with benefits, besides just cleaning action there are many reasons to keep it working. Not a single drawback except if the engine health is already poor, ring seal is already poor, or baffle quality is poor, then you have to control the oil flow coming out of the crankcase. Thus the invention of the catch can, for engines with poor oil control. Since oil control is the most important aspect of racing (can't race with zero oil pressure, can't race with oil spewing everywhere), you immediately assume that this is not a racing engine. A racing engine only can become a competition racing engine once the oil is under control completely. I.e. approaching it is fully monitored and contained so that even in the event of a leak there are ways to conceal the leak during a race and alert the driver/crew for immediate remedy.
Last edited by kingtal0n; 09-24-2017 at 11:58 AM.
#59
11 Second Club
iTrader: (3)
They are venting their engines to atmosphere which means that are not letting those vapors back into their turbos or intake manifolds.
#60
Banned
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I would personally rather wash my intake air duct out once every 15-50k miles and use the compressor cover to draw on the crankcase during boost, improving ring seal and reducing the chances of oil leaks during boost. It does not have to be a significant oil flow to this location, when the engine has proper oil control (so that it doesn't leak oil there). Also, it is fairly simple to clean a compressor (I've done it with a hose and degreaser, with the engine running, I even have a video if you want) of residual oil. You may also choose to vent to the atmosphere during boost instead, losing the benefits of a reduced crankcase pressure but also preventing any blowby gasses from re-entering the engine through the compressor. It is a double edged sword, since you might think you are protecting the engine from blow-by while in fact you are increasing the pressure on all of the oil seals, reducing ring seal (slightly more blow-by is likely) and creating slightly dirtier oil. Those factory turbo engines all had some form of oil control features (often factory convoluted ducts) which accounted for the minimal crankcase flow, and even over the course of 50k miles without being cleaned still looked acceptable on engines where the pcv systems had not been modified. As I have stated I have inspected thousands of these. The all original models with full pcv systems could often be close to spotless on the inside.
Keep in mind that every factory turbo engine in the world uses a tube to feed the crankcase which appears before the compressor of the turbo. A 'restrictor' is often placed in this tube on factory Japanese engines. It isn't to prevent the oil from getting out of the engine- it is there to induce a stronger vacuum signal during out-of boost situations, presumably to improve ring seal but also certainly improving crankcase gas composition.
This post might seem confusing so I will say in other words: there are two "directions" for blowby gasses on turbo engines possible. One is during vacuum situation, one is for boost. The boost situation presents is own set of problems and solutions for pcv systems, and yes, venting to the atmosphere is acceptable over sending it back into the turbo (if the engine has poor oil control this is your only option). However: THIS has NOTHING to do with the other direction of PCV flow, the vacuum side of things, which is all I really care about right now. You can vent the boost gasses wherever you want and still have a fully functioning pcv system under vacuum. I believe This is how the might mouse catch can is intended to be run and the only reason I endorse such devices.
Last edited by kingtal0n; 09-24-2017 at 12:32 PM.