Would meth injection replace an intercooler?
Blanket statements like this kinda rub me the wrong way.
If you are gaining 4+lbs of boost by removing the IC, you don’t have a proper IC to start with. 1-1.5 psi is the norm for “Acceptable” pressure drop across a properly spec’d core. Comparing RPM dependent blower setup to a turbo setup isn’t a “like” comparison either. Generally turning the turbo up another 1-2psi to compensate for pressure loss isn’t an issue.
Sure, in general 24lbs will make more power than 20lbs. Take that same setup with a properly spec’d IC and run them at the same manifold pressures. The intercooled setup will stomp a non-intercooled setup with a water/meth kit on it every time guaranteed
Water injection is NO WHERE NEAR as efficient as a proper A2A intercooler at dropping charge temps. It will NEVER get the charge temps below ambient either. The data your IAT sensor spits out when its saturated with fluid is crap… it’s totally useless information and does not accurately represent the charge temps.
How much fluid you are spraying? Most kits out there don’t spray near enough volume to effect the octane level in the cylinder much either. Think about the volume you are spraying VS total fuel injected, then divide it between 8 cylinders. The typical ebay water/meth kit isn't going to do diddly for your octane.
I’m not saying aux injection doesn’t have benefits, I use it on all my turbo setups w/ or without an IC. But It’s not an intercooler replacement… and shouldn’t be marketed as such.
If you are gaining 4+lbs of boost by removing the IC, you don’t have a proper IC to start with. 1-1.5 psi is the norm for “Acceptable” pressure drop across a properly spec’d core. Comparing RPM dependent blower setup to a turbo setup isn’t a “like” comparison either. Generally turning the turbo up another 1-2psi to compensate for pressure loss isn’t an issue.
Sure, in general 24lbs will make more power than 20lbs. Take that same setup with a properly spec’d IC and run them at the same manifold pressures. The intercooled setup will stomp a non-intercooled setup with a water/meth kit on it every time guaranteed
Water injection is NO WHERE NEAR as efficient as a proper A2A intercooler at dropping charge temps. It will NEVER get the charge temps below ambient either. The data your IAT sensor spits out when its saturated with fluid is crap… it’s totally useless information and does not accurately represent the charge temps.
How much fluid you are spraying? Most kits out there don’t spray near enough volume to effect the octane level in the cylinder much either. Think about the volume you are spraying VS total fuel injected, then divide it between 8 cylinders. The typical ebay water/meth kit isn't going to do diddly for your octane.
I’m not saying aux injection doesn’t have benefits, I use it on all my turbo setups w/ or without an IC. But It’s not an intercooler replacement… and shouldn’t be marketed as such.
I probably asked the wrong question.
What i would like to know is:
when cruising around, is the air going in from the turbo to the intake significantly hoter than the air entering it? Been looking for such data but no luck.
The war will see full boost very seldomly, perhaps 4-6 sec at a time. Shouldn't the design and decision to run an ic or meth based on the intended usage? Please understand that my car has no rollcage and being a convertible will never be on any track, this is 100% a hotrod, a fun cruising toy where building it is half the fun and i'm not looking for more than that. I simply don't want to detonate the motor for the few time
it will see boost and i don't want to mess around routing piping and fitting an A/W ic
unless it is absolutely necessary. Based and you guys imput it seems that a simple meth kit would keep things in check. Havent made a decision, might look into fitting somethin inside the dash since it has no ac or heat.
What i would like to know is:
when cruising around, is the air going in from the turbo to the intake significantly hoter than the air entering it? Been looking for such data but no luck.
The war will see full boost very seldomly, perhaps 4-6 sec at a time. Shouldn't the design and decision to run an ic or meth based on the intended usage? Please understand that my car has no rollcage and being a convertible will never be on any track, this is 100% a hotrod, a fun cruising toy where building it is half the fun and i'm not looking for more than that. I simply don't want to detonate the motor for the few time
it will see boost and i don't want to mess around routing piping and fitting an A/W ic
unless it is absolutely necessary. Based and you guys imput it seems that a simple meth kit would keep things in check. Havent made a decision, might look into fitting somethin inside the dash since it has no ac or heat.
No, it shouldn’t make much additional heat while cruising. It’s only while in boost that heat is a concern. Tune is going to play a huge role in what you can get away with as well.
Without E85, I’d suggest A barrel style A2W. You can run a 5 gallon tank in the trunk and only circulate water through the IC while in boost. Should bring charge temps down near ambient similar to a A2A setup. Water/meth Inj. is so cheap and easy it makes sense to install a kit regardless.
Without E85, I’d suggest A barrel style A2W. You can run a 5 gallon tank in the trunk and only circulate water through the IC while in boost. Should bring charge temps down near ambient similar to a A2A setup. Water/meth Inj. is so cheap and easy it makes sense to install a kit regardless.
On The Tree
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 151
Likes: 6
From: Houston Tx
Blanket statements like this kinda rub me the wrong way.
If you are gaining 4+lbs of boost by removing the IC, you don’t have a proper IC to start with. 1-1.5 psi is the norm for “Acceptable” pressure drop across a properly spec’d core. Comparing RPM dependent blower setup to a turbo setup isn’t a “like” comparison either. Generally turning the turbo up another 1-2psi to compensate for pressure loss isn’t an issue.
Sure, in general 24lbs will make more power than 20lbs. Take that same setup with a properly spec’d IC and run them at the same manifold pressures. The intercooled setup will stomp a non-intercooled setup with a water/meth kit on it every time guaranteed
Water injection is NO WHERE NEAR as efficient as a proper A2A intercooler at dropping charge temps. It will NEVER get the charge temps below ambient either. The data your IAT sensor spits out when its saturated with fluid is crap… it’s totally useless information and does not accurately represent the charge temps.
How much fluid you are spraying? Most kits out there don’t spray near enough volume to effect the octane level in the cylinder much either. Think about the volume you are spraying VS total fuel injected, then divide it between 8 cylinders. The typical ebay water/meth kit isn't going to do diddly for your octane.
I’m not saying aux injection doesn’t have benefits, I use it on all my turbo setups w/ or without an IC. But It’s not an intercooler replacement… and shouldn’t be marketed as such.
If you are gaining 4+lbs of boost by removing the IC, you don’t have a proper IC to start with. 1-1.5 psi is the norm for “Acceptable” pressure drop across a properly spec’d core. Comparing RPM dependent blower setup to a turbo setup isn’t a “like” comparison either. Generally turning the turbo up another 1-2psi to compensate for pressure loss isn’t an issue.
Sure, in general 24lbs will make more power than 20lbs. Take that same setup with a properly spec’d IC and run them at the same manifold pressures. The intercooled setup will stomp a non-intercooled setup with a water/meth kit on it every time guaranteed
Water injection is NO WHERE NEAR as efficient as a proper A2A intercooler at dropping charge temps. It will NEVER get the charge temps below ambient either. The data your IAT sensor spits out when its saturated with fluid is crap… it’s totally useless information and does not accurately represent the charge temps.
How much fluid you are spraying? Most kits out there don’t spray near enough volume to effect the octane level in the cylinder much either. Think about the volume you are spraying VS total fuel injected, then divide it between 8 cylinders. The typical ebay water/meth kit isn't going to do diddly for your octane.
I’m not saying aux injection doesn’t have benefits, I use it on all my turbo setups w/ or without an IC. But It’s not an intercooler replacement… and shouldn’t be marketed as such.
Sounds as if you are arguing semantics.....water/meth is cooler charge temps AND octane. Intercoolers add NO octane.
You do know that a cheap ebay kit and the expensive Devils Own and such pumps are all the same right? They all flow the same amount of fluid, or pretty damn close. The ebay kit just don't come with the safeties and such, it has nothing to do with how much it flows.
As I was leaving Pat G's dyno the other day he told me this.
" In all these years of tuning I've learned to hate two things.....Mass Air Meters and Intercoolers" but, I'm sure he don't know what he's talking about either.
I will bow out and unsubscribe from this thread. It seems as if theories outweigh actual results.
On The Tree
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 151
Likes: 6
From: Houston Tx
I probably asked the wrong question.
What i would like to know is:
when cruising around, is the air going in from the turbo to the intake significantly hoter than the air entering it? Been looking for such data but no luck.
The war will see full boost very seldomly, perhaps 4-6 sec at a time. Shouldn't the design and decision to run an ic or meth based on the intended usage? Please understand that my car has no rollcage and being a convertible will never be on any track, this is 100% a hotrod, a fun cruising toy where building it is half the fun and i'm not looking for more than that. I simply don't want to detonate the motor for the few time
it will see boost and i don't want to mess around routing piping and fitting an A/W ic
unless it is absolutely necessary. Based and you guys imput it seems that a simple meth kit would keep things in check. Havent made a decision, might look into fitting somethin inside the dash since it has no ac or heat.
What i would like to know is:
when cruising around, is the air going in from the turbo to the intake significantly hoter than the air entering it? Been looking for such data but no luck.
The war will see full boost very seldomly, perhaps 4-6 sec at a time. Shouldn't the design and decision to run an ic or meth based on the intended usage? Please understand that my car has no rollcage and being a convertible will never be on any track, this is 100% a hotrod, a fun cruising toy where building it is half the fun and i'm not looking for more than that. I simply don't want to detonate the motor for the few time
it will see boost and i don't want to mess around routing piping and fitting an A/W ic
unless it is absolutely necessary. Based and you guys imput it seems that a simple meth kit would keep things in check. Havent made a decision, might look into fitting somethin inside the dash since it has no ac or heat.
I'm sorry, but you have no idea what you are talking about. Intercoolers cannot touch water/meth. Period. Water/Meth cools the chamber. Have you done any actual datalogging or tuning? It sure does not sound like it.
Sounds as if you are arguing semantics.....water/meth is cooler charge temps AND octane. Intercoolers add NO octane.
You do know that a cheap ebay kit and the expensive Devils Own and such pumps are all the same right? They all flow the same amount of fluid, or pretty damn close. The ebay kit just don't come with the safeties and such, it has nothing to do with how much it flows.
As I was leaving Pat G's dyno the other day he told me this.
" In all these years of tuning I've learned to hate two things.....Mass Air Meters and Intercoolers" but, I'm sure he don't know what he's talking about either.
I will bow out and unsubscribe from this thread. It seems as if theories outweigh actual results.
Sounds as if you are arguing semantics.....water/meth is cooler charge temps AND octane. Intercoolers add NO octane.
You do know that a cheap ebay kit and the expensive Devils Own and such pumps are all the same right? They all flow the same amount of fluid, or pretty damn close. The ebay kit just don't come with the safeties and such, it has nothing to do with how much it flows.
As I was leaving Pat G's dyno the other day he told me this.
" In all these years of tuning I've learned to hate two things.....Mass Air Meters and Intercoolers" but, I'm sure he don't know what he's talking about either.
I will bow out and unsubscribe from this thread. It seems as if theories outweigh actual results.
Point is if your theory was right you wouldn't see the top names in racing using intercoolers... yet they all do. When you run baby blowers that are maxed out RPM wise a dinky intercooler can absolutly hurt performance and you may be better without. Run a good IC and a blower thats not out of steam and an IC will pick up power wise every time.
NONVTEC just posted up a great example on YB forums.
"A few years ago we had a car that slowed up a lot in the summer time.. Air temp on e85 was 160-170 with a a2a. I told them the intercooler needed to be replaced with some more efficient. We ONLY changing the intercooler it put up 15mph and lowered air temp to 120-130.. This was on a HIGH boost Honda 4 cyl. It went from 162mph to 177mph."
You would be circulating hot water before you got out of the neighborhood. Don't make it complicated for yourself with water and pumps and such. Put it together....go to a reputable tuner and have him guide you. If an intercooler is wanted....buy one. But, water/meth is a no brainier.
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By that statement alone I would never let him touch anything I owned with a motor. Typically people "hate" what they don't understand and it sounds like he's in that camp.
I can see what Pat is saying. But WTF is taking it out of context IMO. If you're blower setup is RPM limited with a crap IC then removing it can pick up power. Esp. if the pressure drop across the core is huge. I've seen 11lb drop across the ebay crap core intercoolers. In that case if water inj can keep you out of detonation, then dropping the intercooler is a good idea. Thats a very specific scenario though.
Last edited by Forcefed86; Jan 25, 2018 at 07:31 AM.
I can see what Pat is saying. But WTF is taking it out of context IMO. If you're blower setup is RPM limited with a crap IC then removing it can pick up power. Esp. if the pressure drop across the core is huge. I've seen 11lb drop across the ebay crap cores intercoolers. In that case if water inj can keep you out of detonation, then dropping the intercooler is a good idea. Thats a very specific scenario though.
Restricted User
Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 7,192
Likes: 109
From: Ohio
Water/meths benefits are in the combustion chamber. The intercoolers are before that. They serve different purposes.
Most of the common kits are low volume setups spraying 50/50 mixtures. They are used to pull a moderate amount of heat out of the chamber and cool the air charge slightly. Direct port ensures better distribution to each cylinder when spraying large volumes. Especially helpful when using aux injection for a large percentage of your main fueling when running 100% methanol. You can put together a DIY 50/50 low volume setup for under $100. There is big bang for your buck there.
But I’d suggest running an intercooler as well if you are shooting for 700HP on pump gas with small chamber heads. Esp. if you have flat top pistons. The added weight of the 5 gal (or larger) water tank in the trunk will make it more street friendly anyway.
But I’d suggest running an intercooler as well if you are shooting for 700HP on pump gas with small chamber heads. Esp. if you have flat top pistons. The added weight of the 5 gal (or larger) water tank in the trunk will make it more street friendly anyway.
Here's a link to what Randy used to run: http://www.yellowbullet.com/forum/sh...47&postcount=3
Here's what he stated about the super cooler: http://www.yellowbullet.com/forum/sh...86&postcount=2
Here's what he stated about the super cooler: http://www.yellowbullet.com/forum/sh...86&postcount=2
Last edited by 408GT; Jan 25, 2018 at 12:40 PM. Reason: added link
intercooling and water injection reduce output in effort to make an engine safer to run, usually for use with cheap fuels (like 93). A combination of both is usually the most safe, lowest output config. An engine will make the most power in theory with the largest mass of hot-as-possible air, due to internal and kinetic energy contents.
Raising octane usually does the same thing, less energy from the fuel per gram of fuel, and it is safer for the engine. Sometimes, raising octane is enough, and you can eliminate the intercooler all together.
IMO It goes: octane > intercoolers > water
-water is last because the system traditionally isn't as reliable, as it relies on a pump.
-If you have the best fuel, you don't need intercooler or water, unless the engine has an internal parts temperature threshold reliability issue.
Water has other properties which make it unique and part of a completely different set of reasons why it could or should still be used, even with proper octane or intercooling. Its last on the list of things you want to rely on for making the engine safe (being an aux injectable) but that doesn't mean it still won't find a place on a setup which could stand to benefit from it in other ways.
Inb4I get to explain it all again three times in increasingly longer posts to disbelievers....
Raising octane usually does the same thing, less energy from the fuel per gram of fuel, and it is safer for the engine. Sometimes, raising octane is enough, and you can eliminate the intercooler all together.
IMO It goes: octane > intercoolers > water
-water is last because the system traditionally isn't as reliable, as it relies on a pump.
-If you have the best fuel, you don't need intercooler or water, unless the engine has an internal parts temperature threshold reliability issue.
Water has other properties which make it unique and part of a completely different set of reasons why it could or should still be used, even with proper octane or intercooling. Its last on the list of things you want to rely on for making the engine safe (being an aux injectable) but that doesn't mean it still won't find a place on a setup which could stand to benefit from it in other ways.
Inb4I get to explain it all again three times in increasingly longer posts to disbelievers....
The above is incorrect as well.
First off your entire fuel system relies on a pump and injectors, so that point is moot. A water/meth pump can be just as reliable as your fuel pump.
Second, fuel will not make additional power, regardless of octane. The goal is to get cool dense air in the engine which will make the most power possible per pound of boost. Magic unicorn 300 octane fuel isn’t going to drop your charge temps any… so if you are running 400* charge temps a 25lbs the air will be much less dense than if you ran 25lbs @ 130* charge temps with an intercooler.
In short, if you’re looking for power an intercooler is the answer, period. Same goes with water/meth. Cooling the combustion chamber after the fact isn’t going to cram any additional denser cooler air in the cylinder. Much like above, with water inj you are mainly lowering the knock threshold. This may allow a bit more timing if you aren’t already at MBT timing, or allow more boost. But pound for pound cooler denser air is best at overall power production. Which is why the typical water/meth kit will never “replace” an intercooler.
Start getting into monster volumes of meth injected pre-turbo and things change a bit, but that’s not happening with the typical volumes most water/meth kits run.
First off your entire fuel system relies on a pump and injectors, so that point is moot. A water/meth pump can be just as reliable as your fuel pump.
Second, fuel will not make additional power, regardless of octane. The goal is to get cool dense air in the engine which will make the most power possible per pound of boost. Magic unicorn 300 octane fuel isn’t going to drop your charge temps any… so if you are running 400* charge temps a 25lbs the air will be much less dense than if you ran 25lbs @ 130* charge temps with an intercooler.
In short, if you’re looking for power an intercooler is the answer, period. Same goes with water/meth. Cooling the combustion chamber after the fact isn’t going to cram any additional denser cooler air in the cylinder. Much like above, with water inj you are mainly lowering the knock threshold. This may allow a bit more timing if you aren’t already at MBT timing, or allow more boost. But pound for pound cooler denser air is best at overall power production. Which is why the typical water/meth kit will never “replace” an intercooler.
Start getting into monster volumes of meth injected pre-turbo and things change a bit, but that’s not happening with the typical volumes most water/meth kits run.
Last edited by Forcefed86; Jan 26, 2018 at 11:38 AM.