...and before anyone ask, the reason would be that I'm running out of room for an intercooler. I'm running a single On3 78mm turbo 5.3 LS set up on my 68 convertible vette pro street, BUT, I kept it very "stock" looking which means, flip up headlights and stock radiator location and stock bolt on hood.
This pretty much eliminates a A2A intercooler (headlight in the way). There's a possibility for a W2A, between the rad and the engine (won't know for sure until I mount the black magic elec fan to the rad).
My last choice, maybe bandaid per say, would be meth injection. The car is 100% street, no track, and to be honest, 700 fhp is pretty much the goal...if it goes beyond that great but I'm not looking for it really. I figured the meth would be at least something I can spray when going under boost and keep temps reasonable, rather than nothing at all...thoughts?

 

Look up Forcefed86, he has a hot air setup on his Mustang.

 

On the street I prob wouldn't be afraid to just spray meth-when I ran blowthru carbs I didn't always run an IC'er, but I think running a carb was prob a little more boost friendly if no IC'er, you were mixing fuel/air before the cyls. On the street your not always going to be in boost for a long time like the track (well, some might, lol). I think during WW2 they used water inj. in some of the planes, some interesting articles on that. I used a 50 shot of nitrous on one of my non IC'ed setups. Temps can exceed 300 degs. output, I have logged over 330 before an IC'er, so the heat is there, and gas changes with heat. That's just my .02. You would have to log the temps, see where you are. The Holley ECU can allow flex fuel, so adding some E85 in the mix could help.

 

What fuel? What compression? What Cam? All play a big roll in what you can get away with. Tune can play an even bigger roll.

Few points…

Really you don’t care what the charge temps are… you care what the combustion temps are. N20 will cool the charge temps sure, but it adds oxygen to combustion and burns hotter than no nitrous would. Nitrous is not a substitute for an IC and won’t lower combustion temps in anyway. Awesome stuff and works great at making power, but isn’t going help knock threshold if that’s what you’re after.

Generally IMO the answer is NO. The typical store bought Meth inj. kit is not a substitute for a good IC. That is mainly because the volume of fluid injected is nowhere near large enough to drop the charge temps/combustion temps as efficiently as an IC would. If you ran a huge amount of straight methanol (talking like 30-50%+ of total fueling) pre-turbo then the added octane and cooler combustion temps could be as effective as an A2A IC and possibly better. You can also run into cylinder distribution issues injecting this much fuel pre-throttle body. A good ECU can tune around this with enough time/effort.

That said, if there is no room for an IC water/meth might be able to suppress detonation enough to reach your goal and is defiantly better than running nothing at all. I run a kit on all my cars intercooled or not for the extra cyl cooling/cleaning effects. Ideally you want to inject a small amount of water and a shyt ton of methanol. Should also run some sort of burst panel or pressure relief on your charge pipe if you spray a ton of meth pre turbo. You are basically turning your intake tract into a large bomb if there is a back fire.

 

93 octane, stock truck 5.3 (so 9.5-1 cr I think, 706 heads) Tick performance Stage 3 5.3 turbo cam, On3 78 turbo.
Thanks for the inputs guys, found some good reading about water injection, still reading them as we speak.
there might be a chance that I can fit a this guy http://www.frozenboost.com/air_water...ers-p-215.html
where I want it, won't know just yet, I have to go mount the fan and measure stuff lol

 

If it’s in the budget swap that turbo out with a larger exhaust side. The $640 shipped S475 with 1.32 T6 would work MUCH better.

With that 78mm ON3 turbo and 700hp goal you’ll be leaning on the turbo hard with relatively high back pressures. Which won’t go well with that CAM IMO. With pump gas I’d want a smaller cam, low timing, and low compression. Swap heads to get compression down. You have a 61cc chamber on the 706’s. The 243 (pricey) has a 64cc, 241’s have a 66cc, 317’s have a 71cc.

Personally I’d go with 317’s on a pump gas build. Which will make the car sluggish out of boost. Couple it with an S475 and 4000ish stall 9.5 PTC converter… You’d have a low compression pump gas screamer that built boost on the line instantly.

Might also consider E85. It would work with no IC just fine… toss on a small water/meth kit for extra insurance and go. With the 210lb bosch injectors being so cheap these days, no reason not to if the fuel is available locally.

I run a flex fuel sensor on mine so I can fill up on pump gas, E85, or any percentage of the two and the ECU adjusts the tune automatically.

 

I should be able to tell you soon if it works or not. I just switched my off-road race car from A2W to a Snow Performance injection kit. I'm running dual injection nozzles in the volute of my F1R procharger. I run E85 and plan to run a 70/30 water/meth mix. The E85 doesn't really need an octane boost and most of the combustion cooling comes from the water. I don't expect to gain any HP, but hope I don't lose any

 

I appriciate the inputs, Far as changing the combo, not gonna happen. It's set and done. I'm looking at one spot that I might be able to fit a FrozenBoost Type 26. A 12 pack of soda is close to the same dimension (still about 1" short in width), but it's really tight. I need to spend more time measuring:




if that doesn't work then it'll have to be meth injection only...better than nothing at all. E85 could be a possibility with the GM sensor but I know my pump is not compatible with E85 if I recall correctly.

 

Isn't that your fan shroud just to the left of the soda? I would imagine that would block flow quite a bit unless its an illusion from the angle.

 

yes it is, and that would be an air to water cooler, no air/air (sorry didn't mention it)

 

I assumed a2w from your link to frozen boost...I was more concerned what other problems will arise from blocking your fan.

 

I see what you mean, it's an illusion.

 

Meth injection and an intercooler mainly serve 2 different purposes.

Intercooler increases power potential, gives more consistent IATs, lowers IATs. It doesn't do nearly as much for detonation as people give it credit for.

Meth injection does more for detonation, but isn't as efficient as an intercooler for lowering IATs.

 

Have you seen the barrel style A2W cores? They take up much less space… Shouldn’t need a large core for 700 fwhp… esp if you throw alky kit on it too.

 

You can get away non intercooled all together with you power goals on e-85 with no problem at all. If you are on pump gas you will be able to with a squirt of meth. We have a non intercooled single turbo package we do with a 5.3 and a 5.7 that makes 600 pump 800 pump/meth and 922 e85.

 

are we talking post turbo and aft turbo injection ?

 

What would the limit be on e85 with power with no intercooler? On a 90% track car with very little street? Sorry not to hijack thread.

 

That’s an open ended question with no real answer IMO.

There is no limit depending on the engine specifics/combo. You could adjust the base compression to supplement the lack of IC. Less base compression=less heat in chamber. Can also play with the cam profile to shift dynamic comp. around a bit. The power adder used also has a huge effect in how much heat is made at X boost amount. Then there’s ambient temps and the tune to consider.

 

That's like saying "How much power can I make with a turbo".

 

I have built quite a few boosted cars for myself and members of this forum. I currently own 3...Twin turbo BMW....Procharged C5z.....Turbo LS6 Fox coupe. I have been messing with these things for quite a few years...since fox bodies had A trims on them. In every single instance of water injection and no intercooler my cars have always gone faster. Every time. I just recently pulled the big A@A intercooler off my Corvette added another water nozzle in front of my blower went to Pat G's for a touch up and picked up 4 lbs boost and the data logs showed temps just as cool as my own personal datalogs when I had intercooler/water injection. Nobody will ever know if every combination will work without one. But, I for one think that they are just a waste of money. Never again. An air intercooler will never ever get below ambient. A cheap ghetto ebay W/W kit will drop temps like a rock when the water kicks on, and adds tons of octane and cylinder cooling to the mix. It's a no brainer.