liquidmx

Good afternoon everyone.
Long time lurker, occasional post(er). Thank you for the invaluable resource (and knowledge) that is LS1Tech.

The question:

I have an MS3 goldbox and an AlkyControl Methanol injection kit (controller, etc.) Which controller would you use to control the meth injection process (and why or will they do the same thing?)? I would prefer to use the goldbox if there are no downsides. I want to run a progressive methanol injection system with 2 nozzles. Right now I have the plumbing done and I am getting ready to tackle the wiring.

If I were to use the Goldbox, confirm I wire the output to a solid state relay and from solid state relay to pump, correct? (I believe Sloppy mechanics references a good solid state relay). Sorry I am not super strong in the electrical arena. I plan on having my tuner review it, test it and tune for it. I want to get it as close to ready as possible so he doesn't have to fuddle around much.

If this question is redundant I apologize. I searched high and low and could not find a clear MS3/pro vs. Alkycontrol analysis. I plan on having my tuner tune the MS3 to control it.

Thanks!

ScottyBG

The problem here is both of these items are out there, but the likelihood of someone having and understanding both of them well enough to answer your question is slim. I have an Alkycontrol system which I like very much, and I know a few people who have a MS3 on their car, but none of them have an Alkycontrol system. You really need to know alot about both to answer this question. I would suggest that you contact both manufacturers and discuss it with them. I know Aklycontrol can be reached by phone and give great insight about their products.

shainiac

Myself and a few friends have been using MS3X/MS3Goldbox to control water meth with a lot of success.
In my case, the MS3X has 2 high current injector drivers capable of driving the pump directly, Goldbox does not so you are correct about using a SSR.
Does Alkycontrol use an inline solenoid like Aquamist? If not, you likely won’t be reusing any of the wiring or electronics.

If not, wiring the Megasquirt is pretty simply. You can easily use the 2 Nitrous Outputs to control the pump.
In TunerStudio, there are 2 selectable outputs in the Water injections settings, Pump Output and Valve Output
Pump Output: One output wire grounds a standard 30A relay that provides 12V to the (+) side of the pump.
The second output wire triggers the negative “coil” of the solid state relay to pulse ground to the (-) side of the pump.

The advantages of MS3 Water meth –
You can completely tune a map of your water injection duty cycle based on a 4x8 cell matrix for RPM vs BOOST. More knock in a certain area? Add some more duty cycle.
Level sensor – this feature has saved my *** more times than I’d like to admit. It’s easy for a low, but not empty tank to slosh away from the pickup. If the level sensor is triggered, it throws the car in brief limp-mode to let you know something’s not right.
Also, it’s nice to have the pump duty cycle in the data log so you have an idea of what tuning changes need to me made.
If you want to go one step further, you could also add a 0-5V transducer to the water meth high-pressure line or use the 0-5V output from the AEM Water Meth Failsafe flow gauge to have an additional data point of reference.


In my case, I wasn’t worth buying a full methanol kit just to toss the controller. I purchased a new AEM pump, level sensor, nozzle, and a Devil’s Own 2.25 gallon tank. I think I had about $350 into the whole setup. It worked well enough to make 540whp on a 13B rotary engine with 93 oct and straight water injection. You may be better off selling your whole kit to recoup some money and buy only the components you need.

dburt86

iTrader: (2)

Shainiac nailed it and me and him have done this in a handful of cars with succes (including my own with numbers in my sig)

Only thing ill add, is the 30amp relay for the pump output needs to be on key switched 12v or else it will pulse the pump when shutting off the car.

liquidmx

Righteous, thanks for the help and insight guys!

LS325ci

iTrader: (3)

for those that spend the extra cash for a "nice" controller did you guys net any real gains vs just plain old single stage boost activated?

why run a injection kit and run just water? couldnt you just mod for a better air cooling system or maybe a well match setup?
i guess im asking why didnt you take advantage of methanol injection?

How long did this last? was it a DD?
ive done some search on these and it seems rotary dont like beeing over 500


Ive run simple/plain kits myself and made 600whp on stock 5.3
s

dburt86

iTrader: (2)

He ran straight water because rotary guys are batshit crazy.

And yes he DD the car. Its now a TT 5.3 SBE

Forcefed86

iTrader: (4)

I’ve used several aftermarket progressive kits (including Alkycontrol) in my turbo Buick days. MS3 is the better unit for the data logging capabilities alone. Having multiple other features capable of being tied into the water/meth is also a nice feature. No reason to run both if you already have the MS3.

All of the kits work to an extent. It just depends how much you want out of your kit, and how much you rely on it to keep the engine alive. I’d say 90% of the LS turbo guys don’t spray enough volume to warrant progressive control. IMO, any LS spraying15gph or less of 50/50 won’t benefit much from a progressive kit. Baby engines having 15+gph kick on all at once tend to bog down the engine. So progressive kits are almost a must, especially with high %’s of water in the mix. I don’t even notice my meth kit activating with my LS engines around 15gph with an on/off setup. If you want the most out of a kit. Run high %’s of methanol in high volumes. Use good SS methanol rated fittings and lines. The push-lock fittings o-rings swell and fail with high %’s of methanol.

People overcomplicate these kits and they aren’t worth what the companies are charging IMO.

Get yourself a nice tank from agrimart.com. I paid $39 shipped for a 2.5 gallon sumped tank with a 5” lid. Which IMO is better than the repurposed lawnmower fuel tanks some sell on alky injection sites. Splurge on a good pump. I like the Devilsown 300psi recirculating pump for $134. If you plan on spraying 50/50 use the Devilsown calculator on the home page to determine the GPH nozzle size. Purchase the nozzles, lines, fittings online. Buying these from a vendor not associated with alky injection is usually much cheaper. Look for the key word “bubble tight” on the fittings.

Should be able to build yourself a kit for $225 or less with a nice tank. Devils own also has the self-sealing low level sensors that you can install on the tank very quickly/easily for $20 if that’s a feature you want. With a 2.5 gallon tank I don’t worry about running out of meth.

One more note. You need to calculate your nozzle size VS system pressure. If a calculator tells you to spray 10gph it means an actual 10gph. A 10gph nozzle at 100psi flows 10gph. At 300psi a 10gph nozzle flows 17.3gph. So if the calculator says you need 10gph. On your 300psi system you’ll run a 6gph nozzle..

shainiac

I’ve had the car running for 3 years. Never broken an engine, but I usually pull everything apart over the winters to make upgrades (bigger porting, mainly).
The engine that made 540whp was my daily driver from July through the end of October. The ONLY issue I ever had was one shredded alternator belt the first drive home : )
I pulled the engine and sold it in running condition to supplement LS costs.

I ran straight water for a few reasons. There isn’t any readily available E85 in the area. I also drove the car a lot (350-400 miles a week) and would usually go through 1.5-2 gallons a week of water. Mixing water with methanol would have gotten pretty annoying. Also, I’ve ran washer fluid in the past and have seen weird corrosion on the inside of throttle bodies and manifolds, so I avoided that too.

The theory with straight water is that it has superior knock suppression in the chamber. Water meth will definitely make more power, but if you’re just trying to quell knock, water works great. I also had a kickass water-air intercooler, so I didn’t have issues with IATs. After 3 hours on the dyno and WAY too many pulls, the hottest my IATs ever got was 103F at the end of the last few 4th gear pulls to 8500rpm.

liquidmx

Thanks for the additional insight guys, this has been really helpful.

One last question (hopefully):

Is the white wire to the pump a common ground that does not require any sort of relay or ECM control? I would infer this since there was a fourth white wire that was clearly a common ground (O terminal already connected). Below is a link to a Pic of the pump illustrating the white wire that is in the wiring loom with the Red and Black.

http://www.alkycontrol.com/product-p...7-88adf8284543

For what it's worth. Alky Control didn't "upsell" me on anything. I am very new to all of this stuff and I called him and told him to hook me up with a system. During that discussion with Julio (I think?) I was very Naïve to the Goldbox's capabilities (I am not super strong in wiring/tuning and this is my first LS car). It wasn't until later (when I spoke to my tuner) that I realized the true capabilities of the Goldbox/megasquirt. In that discussion the lighbulb went on for me.

This build is a LOT of firsts for me: First Classic car, first hybrid (fuel injected classic), first LS, first Automatic, first turbo and first car over 300hp (currently 600 RWHP @10psi). I realize that firsts are always steep(er) learning curves and will be less "efficient".

I am adding two quick pics of the car. I could not have built this car without the help of this site, Sloppy Mechanics (Matt & contributors) and Yellowbullet. I scraped, searched and scavenged darn near all the information I needed from contributors to that site. Now that I have a running and driving car (and can "walk the talk") I plan to contribute a little more in areas where I have some knowledge.

3 window

iTrader: (1)

Cool build man! Give some more details about the setup. That's good power for 10 psi. I know what you mean about feeling accomplished. My Nova was my first force inducted project and the only thing I could say the first time it spooled up and "woodshed" the BOV was COOL!!! Keep up the good work.

liquidmx

Thanks 3 Window.

2011 SBE 6.0 LS (dished pistons), lil john custom cam, S475, A2A ebay intercooler, Goldbox, Siemens 80lb injectors, stock 4l80e (converter on it's way), Ford 9" with 3.50 S Trac and 35 spline axles (had 4.89's during initial tune), minitubbed, 4 link, mustang II front end.

I bought the car with the Mustang II front end, 4 link and ford 9". Everything else was done by me, in my garage on nights and weekends.

The funniest part (so far) was the tuning experience. A buddy suggested Nate/Starkweather performance. Awesome guy, tons of knowledge and he was able to constructively "nitpick" what needed correcting without damaging my ego and did so explaining the why (awesome!). He also took the time to educate me on the megasquirt program AND train me a little in tuning and data reading/logging. After the tune he says "hop in, I wanna see how it tips into a burnout and how it does on the footbrake". I get in the passenger seat (mind you I had never gone WOT with the car prior to tuning and now I was riding shotgun to Nate). Nate goes through the paces, burnout, launch and through 1-3 (4.89 gears at the time). That was my first experience in both a high horsepower car and a turbo car. Even though the gears were WAY too tall...it was a religious experience (Ho Le Fuc). Since then I have been slowly acclimating myself to the power while making small upgrades here and there.

LS325ci

iTrader: (3)

so the rotary got fresh rebuild every year? for a total of 4 months usage a year? sounds expensive.

how big is your injection tank? I ran ~ 4 gallons on my DD and it didnt feel that big of a chore to do.

they both suppress knock. they just do it differently.
water "quench" while methanol raises the threshold.

I dont think water/air is a good idea for the streets(but thats one of those things) or even needed if your injecting. My cheap ebay air to air with 50/50 drops my ait to 90*F.

did you measure without the injection? did you see knock then added it or just assumed it would need it?
how much boost were you pushing? just trying to understand if it was even needed?
Im a rotary dummy so just curious. (as I actually bought a car with a rotary swapped and first thing i did was take it out since it didnt look like it would meet my power goal.)

shainiac

There’s really only one way to change the “cam” in a rotary engine and that requires a full teardown. Fortunately, I’ve been building rotary engines a long time and it only takes me an afternoon to put it back together. Cleaning, inpecting, and porting are more time consuming. As long as the metal seals are in good shape, I typically just buy a $160 gasket kit to reassemble one.

2.25 gallon tank. 1000cc/min nozzle, but at approx. 75% duty cycle. Diaphragm pumps do NOT flow linearly with duty cycle. They’re about 80% max flow by 50% duty cycle.

I used water because it has a higher specific heat, meaning one cc of water can suck more heat than one cc of methanol. This is good if you’re trying to keep the compressed fuel/air away from the auto-ignition of gasoline before the spark event. It's not the best at lowering IATs and increasing density.
You’re right though, it does quench some of the flame since it doesn’t burn. I do think I would have made more power on water-meth, it just would have been more of a hassle than grabbing a jug of water from the gas station of filling up my tap at home.

My water-air intercooler worked great on the street and was cheaper than a nice air-air. It was a heat exchange-only setup, no ice box. I would typically see IATs of 75-85 on cooler days and within 15* of ambient on hot days. The temps would barely go up under load though. I think I had $300 into the setup - $79 ebay IC, Roush Stg3 OEM heat exchanger, GT500 pump and expansion tank. The biggest reason I did it was to not have to chop up the car for air-air and to have super short piping.

I never noticed a difference in IATs with/without water. I never had knock sensing, but rotaries are extremely sensitive to knock. As in, don’t go near it. The general rule of thumb is that about 16psi is the safe max psi for pump gas on these engines. I dynod the car up to 27psi at peak tq and 25 at peak hp. I hit the 31psi boost cut a few times on the street in cold weather. Boost control with an undersized internal wastegate isn’t great.

Sorry for thread jacking /

stevieturbo

Digging up an old one....although I think there might have been another thread or post about this ?

I did some testing today, 30-3015 AEM pump...they claim "200psi" ( I call BS ), but of course there will be other factors. Cheap China 10 bar sensor, so 145-150psi limit ( I've ordered some 200 and 300psi sensors to try )

2 x nozzles, Devlisown, D07 and D10, claiming 640cc and 940cc respectively. Ancient old Snow controller with turn on set to 8psi ( max for low dial ) and full at 25psi ( max for high dial )

Open flow of the pump would be pretty close to claimed, I tested that a few weeks ago, although not super accurately. My pump is about 6 years old but seems healthy.

Test 1, 10psi boost ( applied to controller, engine off, using water only ), turn on point would be confirmed at 8psi ok.

Pump Duty around 32%, 52Hz and with a peak pump current of 11.5A ( not RMS though, simply the peaks )
However...line pressure at this varies from 40-60psi, very unstable.
PWM at 50Hz is pretty **** too, although this controller must be near 15 years old so maybe newer versions are better ) I'm sure with a higher PWM freq there might be more chance of a stable pressure reading, although that might just also be down to pump design ?

Test 2, 20psi boost. 52Hz with pump duty being reported at around 54%, peak current around 10A, and pressure varying from about 65-105psi.

Final, at 22psi the pump switched to 100% duty, current dropped to a steady 7.5A, pressure varying 110-15psi.

At no point with the pump running could I get a stable pressure reading., although when air testing the sensor it will hold stable ok, so the fluctuations are real IMO.

Was only a slightly audible tone change between 20 and 22psi where the pump went flat out, and this was of course earlier than the 25psi dial indicator on the controller.

Even at low boost, the nozzles did spray very well ( after some adjustments ) and were still moving a fair amount of water.

When ramping boost up, highest duty seen was about 67% before it immediately went to full 100%. Not overly smooth or linear....but actual line pressure before the jets sees the biggest fluctuations of all ! and at no point pegs the 150psi sensor indicating it is making over that pressure.

Forcefed86

iTrader: (4)

Since u are pulsing voltage to the pump a mechanical gauge wont work correctly without some type of snubber or a gauge meant for that type of system.

stevieturbo

There is no mechanical gauge, it's a chinese ebay sensor.

Yes of course you could dampen it, filter it etc etc....but that doesnt change the fact is is pulsing quite heavily. Although ultimately, at least visually it doesnt seem to affect the spray too much

And pretty much all controllers with the exception of Aquamist with one of their better kits will operate the pump in this manner.

The 200psi claims must be with very small jets or against a dead end, although will see when I get the higher rated sensors

stevieturbo

Some food for thought after more testing today.

I tried running the pump of an SSR ( little Hella drop in replacement, although pins are different so it isnt really a drop in replacement...but anyways )

Static testing, engine off.
At any PWM frequency, pump just wasnt really happy at anything below 50% duty, and wouldnt really create enough pressure to be of any use anyway ( D07 and D10 Nozzles )
Pump did seem happiest around 50-100Hz PWM, although would still need to test more at that. Changed sensor for a 200psi sensor in case it was maxing the 150....nope, nowhere near it.

So at various pressures, and smoothing as the readings are still erratic ( although not as bad as with the Snow controller ). Obviously with engine off the pump voltage will be a little lower, but it also isnt having to fight boost pressure.
Ramping pump duty from around 9-10psi/55% to 32psi/100%

10psi boost, 55% Pump Duty, approx 65psi water pressure = 55psi effective water pressure.

15psi boost, 65% Pump Duty, approx 82psi water pressure = 67psi effective water pressure

17.5psi boost, 70% pump duty, approx 90psi water pressure = 72.5psi effective water pressure

20psi boost, 74% pump duty, approx 96psi water pressure = 76psi effective water pressure.

30psi (fraction more ), 97% pump duty, 129psi water pressure = 99psi effective water pressure

32psi, 100% pump duty, 136psi water pressure = 104psi effective water pressure.

That's the AEM 200psi pump.....I'm sure the results wouldnt vary much with anyone elses pump, I've no reason to think this pump is unhealthy in any way. So it does dispel a little BS on their pressure claims and anyones perception of what pressure these systems run at in the real world.

Oddly, also only just noticing that pump duty in my case almost exactly mirrors relative injection pressure at the nozzle.

shainiac

I don't think the pump pressure rating is at flow. It's a positive displacement pump (diaphragm), so the pressure is just a function of how much of that volume you're bleeding off. It may have upgraded diaphragms or other BS that allows them to rate it higher than the standard 150psi, but in reality, most meth pumps are based off of SHURflow diaphragm pumps. If you dead-head the pump you may see that 200psi rating, but you're already flowing more than AEM's largest nozzle size. As long as you have more good atomization and enough differential to flow into pressurized charge piping, you'll be fine.

stevieturbo

Decided to test with just the small D07 640cc nozzle...to see if the pump is even capable of decent pressure at low flow. Pressure readings are always erratic, so all values are averaged/filtered.

11psi boost, 94psi at pump
22psi boost, 138psi at pump
32psi boost, 155psi at pump

So a good pressure difference....although few would ever use as small a jet as that, at least not on a V8 application.

I didnt measure flow difference...but there's probably a crossover point where larger nozzles simply do not flow more because of the pressure loss.

I would say during all tests, even at the lowest 55psi or so, spray atomisation did appear excellent.