Further update, I found the Mazda controller with pigtails for $24.50 shipped to the US on Ali Express:
Controller with pigtails

Other options on that page are just the controller ($14.50) or just the pigtails ($15).

Estimated arrival date 6/18, so like Amazon lately don't get in a hurry. Or you can pay $40 and get it on June 26! Paying more and getting less: Looks like they ceded shipping operations to the federal government.

I'm still working to ID the connectors. If I can find the Dorman # for that controller I'll email tech support again to see what it will do. Seems like the technically oriented here could rewire these babies for MORE POWER!!!

 

That's a lot of trouble and money to spend on potentially questionable parts...LOL

What's wrong with the Fusion fan and controller combo for $200...or the C7 for about the same...Both of these are beasts...

Andrew

 

Since you asked...
My core is 26.8 W x 18.1 H.
The 2009 Fusion 3.0L w/ tow package core is 25.79 W x 16.59 H, and runs about $195 shipped w/ controller on Rock Auto. It's about an inch smaller each way. Accordingly, any fan for it will not cover the entire core. The fans I've looked at on Rock Auto do not have holes with flaps for air to pass through at road speed, so all air must pass through the fan blades. I'll note the 2017 Escape 2.0 turbo with tow package fan at 26.46 /17.89 is a great fit for me and does have the flaps. See my post above as to why I did not buy it. I also could have gone even lower cost by using a leftover dual 13" fan and shroud from my former 2009 Hemi Challenger. Hard to beat free, but at 24 W x 18 H it was also too narrow, and it has no bypass holes.

The 2015 C7 core is 21.0W x 18.0H, and the fan with controller runs over $200 plus shipping, let's estimate about $220. While the height is good, it's nearly 6 inches narrower. That's about 3" of core on each side not getting air at idle or low speed. Unlike the Fusion, it has at least 7 holes and flaps for pass through air.

My aftermarket shroud is 25.75 x 18.75. Like the Fusion, it is an inch narrower but it more than covers the vertical. Like the C7, it has several holes with flaps to pass air at road speeds.

Now for some math:
The controllers I bought are for the most part for my experimentation since I do swaps from time to time. For this T-Bird fan & shroud project, using the Dorman controller I'll have spent about $140 shipped for all three pieces. Any of the above will need to be adapted to my truck via brackets and wiring, so that's not a cost factor.

That concludes the data assessment. Now for the conclusion:
So should I:
A. Spend $195 for an ill-fitting fan with no pass-through capability,
B. Spend $220 for an even worse fitting fan with pass-through, or
C. Spend $140 for a better fitting combo with pass-through using a fan that has a proven track record with myself and others?

After spending weeks looking at core sizes and other data, that is why I chose option C. The weak link here IMO is the Dorman controller.

If for some reason this does not work out, I'll give the Escape fan a try. I'm also planing to pick up some used Fusion controllers if I can get them at a good price. I'd also like to look at some 12V PWM circuits and see if they can be beefed up. I had to do something similar with an ignition controller when adding a microsquirt to one of my bikes.

 

You are way overthinking this. Having 100% coverage is not necessary because the temperatures across the radiator are not constant. The inlet upper portion is always much hotter than the lower outlet portion. In any case, no need to get into a pissing match...I have neither the desire nor motivation....it's the internet.

You post great links and information, and I look forward to seeing what you come up with for a solution, overthought that it might be :-)

Andrew

 

LOL, overthinking is my default setting , especially since I have more time on my hands than usual. No intent on participating in a contest, I see it may have come off that way. I just posted my decision making process for this project.

If I get some more info on the PWM controllers I'll post it here.
EDIT made the 60 mile trip to a JY today that showed 4x 06-09 Fusions in the yard. Found one controller & scored it with the harness for $19 OTD. Now for some rewiring for MORE POWER!

 

So I'm going to rewire my Fusion controller.
EDIT #2: I stripped and measured one of the heavy wires. The bare conductor was 2.6mm, which crosses over to 10 gauge.

Many thanks to Andrew via the several threads he contributed to with terminal numbers back in 2016-17. Here is one I used. I have quoted it below. I tried to add direct links to Mouser but they did not work. I also added notes and prices as of May 2020.
In summary, they determined the best small terminal was the last one, 571-2-964286-1. The issue then as now is Mouser only sells them in a minimum of 40, and Digi-Key does not sell all of the other parts, so you end up paying shipping twice. At one place, you're only buying one thing. I think I found a solution.

My updates to this are that so as to avoid paying shipping to two places, I found Mouser PN 571-964285-2, which when compared to the 286 terminal appears to be the same size terminal. They are available for individual sale, so I have linked them above.

The other connector (power/PWM inlet) is listed elsewhere in this thread, but I'll post two links here depending on how fast you need it & how much you want to spend:
$24.12 with free shipping
Ali Express (China), $10.41 for FIVE with free shipping

EDIT 1: Found the male connector and both male and female terminals in China. More China vendors-
This vendor on Ali Express sells the male and female connectors with terminals and seals with free shipping. You can buy them in quantities of 1, 2, 5, 30, or 100. For one set it is $7.52. If you get 5 at a time, the cost is $24.90. You can also buy either the male or female in similar quantities. They also sell what appears to be the small terminal referenced above, 20 for $3.61 with free shipping.

Here are 100 of the 9.5mm FEMALE terminals for $13.36 shipped.
Here are 100 of the 9.5mm MALE terminals for $11.06 shipped.

No luck on the seals yet, I'll keep looking for them.

Finally, I wanted to attach pics that show how the large terminals are removed from the controller main connector. It took a few minutes to figure this one out, so I thought I'd share.
I used some Weatherpack extractor tools like these on .

1. Slide the black piece to the side using a small flat screwdriver. This piece locks the terminals in place.
2. Use a terminal pick and insert it in the hollow areas on either side of the terminal (see connector pic). You're trying to press in the tabs (see terminal pic).
3. Slide out the old terminal.

Installation is the reverse of the above.

On the smaller terminals, neither Weatherpack tool I had would fit into the opening to release them, I never could remove the one in my connector. IMO it's easier to just strip & solder a new wire onto the old one. The tabs on these are at the far rear:




I hope this helps someone down the road as it has helped me! Pics follow
Connector showing terminals in place and removed.



Terminal removed showing tabs to be depressed.



Connector with lock exposed.

 

Anyone have any experience with brush-less fans and controllers these days? I know this is a PWM based thread... Thought I may get some decent exposure here to "fan people".

I have an 07 BMW brush less fan. I'd like a simple controller that won't set me back $300 like the aftermarket units.

 

The three pin connectors use locks that push in from the face of the connector. I used a small cotter pin with a hook on one end to pull them off. Once they are off, use the attached pics to locate the tabs that have to be pulled away from the terminals.


Both 3 pin connectors with terminal locks removed




Female side of 3 pin connector



Male side of 3 pin connector

 

While browsing Ali Express, I found what looked like the C6 controller for $40.88 shipped. While it looks like the same controller, they say it is for a "Mercedes-Benz W220 S500 S430 CL500 OEM 0275456432 A0275456432 A 027 545 64 32". I looked up a 1999 C280 on Rock Auto, and the same module was there- made by Gates with a harness- albeit for $164 plus shipping. It's odd a Mercedes part costs less than one for a Chevy.

No idea if this would work on a US application, but the pins look to be the same.

IF (a big if at this point) this would work, it would be a far lower-cost option for a new part. If I get additional info, I'll post here.

EDIT: Here is an Amazon for the same thing. It's $49.77 shipped.

Further info- I was reading some MB forums, and the W220 S class uses a similar controller- and it's even cheaper on Rock Auto @ $135. According to this thread, the MB fans are either 600W (43.x amps @13.8V, same as Corvette C7) or 850W, a whopping 61.5 amps!!!

For what it's worth, I looked up a 2002 MB S500 radiator, and the core size is 25-3/16 x 18-13/16. A little too narrow for my application, but it could likely work for others. The radiator fans for it are $250 to over $600 on RA though, so not a bargain new. On car-part.com, they can be had used for $50 plus shipping. I may have to try one of these and see if the shroud can be trimmed.

Here's a thread on a megasquirt forum where the fan's wiring and operation are discussed. It's mostly over my head, but Andrew may be able to make something of it.

UPDATE- Here's a of a 2001 C320 fan being controlled by PWM. According to the uploader:
According to Rock Auto, this model does not use the same controller style as the newer S500 et al, but the 2001 CLK320 does. I'm not up on Mercedes variations.

Here is another , this time it shows the same type S500 controller being used. The uploader comments:
I can't see his wiring clearly enough, but it looks like he just powered it straight with 12V.

A final shows the Mazda controller.

 

I took my Fusion controller apart so I could take some pics. See below. I'd like to see what if any differences there are with the C6 and Mercedes controllers. According to the Megasquirt forum post I linked, the Mercedes controller has 8 gauge input wires while these on the Fusion are 10 gauge. That being the case, it would seem the Mercedes internals would have to be heftier. I'm not great with circuit boards, but it looks like the two smaller terminals on each side are not connected to anything.

After reading his posts again, it seems like if you can delay the ignition power input to the MB controller until after it gets a PWM signal, it works properly. I found a 12V relay with an adjustable delay time that could possibly work for this.

 

So are there actual differences? You're delving into this way deeper than anyone. I appreciate the knowledge generation!

Andrew

 

I love taking stuff apart. I'm surprised you beat me to it. Looks like pretty old technology but I'm only guessing. Today's mosfets are much more efficient with very low on resistance. I just looked at one today that can handle 90 amp continuous all by itself. But they have to have to be driven correctly or they will overheat. The key is to have very fast rise and fall times that can overcome the gate capacitance to keep them cool. I'f I had to guess, I'd say one of those 5 mosfets drives the other 4.

 

I find a couple of misleading things about this video. Notice he had the PWM voltage dial on his expensive machine is at 9volt. He said that it reached a 100% duty cycle when clearly the scope showed nowhere near 100%. The reason for this is that the control for this module is 0 to 5volts. So because he was using a 9volt PWM, he reached an average of 5 volts way before the PWM signal was at 100%. Also he is wrong that this module needs a PWM input. It doesn't. This particular module takes whatever signal is input to control it and averages it out. The reason the auto manufacturers use PWM input instead of an analog voltage is because it's easier to generate a PWM signal than an analog voltage and losses along the way don't affect the signal to the module. You could drive this module with a potentiometer from 0 to 5 volts. That's not true for all other modules or PWM operated devices in cars.

 

Thanks for the replies. I'm intrigued by the Mercedes fan, especially since it is so thin.This electronics stuff is outside my wheelhouse, but I'm trying to learn. Any thoughts on using a PWM to analog converter to output a constant 12V (or whatever the engine is generating, say 13.8V)? Most of the converters I'm finding use a proportional output, i.e. 0-10V.

This DC constant would then be applied to the MB fan controller after a PWM signal is output by the ECM.

General schematic:
ECM PWM output--->PWM to constant DC volts---> MB fan controller IGN wire
ECM PWM output--->MB fan controller PWM input
PWM converter powered by a switched 12V source, which passes through once PWM is detected.

Theory:
PWM generated by ECM due to either coolant temp or AC pressure. Once it does so, the PWM converter sends DC voltage to the IGN terminal, which then allows the controller to accept the PWM signal from the ECM. ECM then controls fan output.

Issues:
Would this be a reliable method? What happens when the fan reduces the temp or the AC is turned off?

UPDATE-
I joined a MB forum and have inquired as to which models used the 850W fan. I'll update here once I hear something. I saw a YT video (not going to link it) where the back of a 2006 C230 fan was shown. It clearly showed it was a 600W fan, and the controller was in the back of the fan motor- it's really non-serviceable, so those should be avoided. From what I've read about MB models, 2006 was a new generation. At this point, I suspect the smaller engine cars and possibly the larger ones w/o a tow package or HD cooling got the 600W fan, while the others got the 850W unit. Some of the S500 fans have a weird belt drive system. A second video (poor video and audio quality) a technician from MB of Atlanta had the fan from an S500. Although the video quality was poor, I could make out it was an 850W fan on the label. He said the fan was also used on the S430 through 2005 or 2006, and said the part numbers were 220 500 0193 or 0293.

Safest bet at this point for an 850W fan is a 2002-05 S500 or S600. I did find an online JY that allows online orders- Marshalls in Ohio. They have a few of the 2001 C320 fans for $40 and $22 shipping. I think I bought at least one of my MK 8 fans from them. I did not see any of the S500 fans there, but there were a number on car-part.com for under $75.

 

I'm making a guess based upon printed info. If the MB controller indeed has 8G wires, then it makes sense the internals are different.
The MB controller is under $50 on Amazon. I think buying one is in order so I can do a side by side comparison and best answer that question.

Presuming the PWM converter idea works and can be constructed economically (say under $10), then this could be a huge bargain for a mega-fan:
Used S500 fan: $75 shipped (there are a bunch on car-part.com for $50, and they may even come with a controller)
New controller from Amazon: $50 shipped.
PWM converter: $10
Total: $135

Side note- my shroud arrived today, and it has a lip on it that reduces the overall height by 1". That makes it too small for my 17.5" ID T-Bird fan. I'm considering some options for it such as welding in a 1" x .5" piece of angle. It's a nice shroud otherwise..

 

I've done a good bit of reading and inquiring on the fans from the 2000-06 C series (W203) and variants, 2002-09 E series (W211) and variants, and 2000-06 S series (W220) and variants. I think you'd need a site like Wikipedia to keep track of all of the variants made. For any Robocop fans, I'm surprised they never made a 6000SUX!

I liked the W220 since they were mostly the 850W variants. I came to find out the controller we've been looking at here only applies to the 2000-01 models with a belt driven fan. I think that is a novel yet dumb idea, and am not pursuing that controller for a MB fan any more. I did not buy any of them. The 2002-06 W220 fan is likely the best of the bunch, it has the built-in PWM controller and most I've seen are 850W. They are also over $100 used plus shipping. No free lunch, but probably a good value for an 850W fan! Core size of the S500 is 25.19 x 18.82, slightly narrow & tall for a Trailblazer type of radiator. There is also conflicting info as to how the ignition wire is run. One school of thought is to delay the 12V until a PWM signal is sent, the other just says to straight wire it. On the MB forum I joined, a member posted the section of shop manual that shows it is straight wired.

The W203 C series cars are plentiful, use a large (18" or so) 600W PWM fan, although the shroud is shorter. The top of the fan extends past the top edge of the shroud. Core size is generally 25.5 x 16.0. These like the W220 use two large and two small wires which appear to function the same way. A YT video I linked above claims all that is needed for this fan is a 60A fuse and PWM source. I found an aftermarket version of this on Amazon Warehouse for $55 shipped with controller. I decided against it after receiving the W211 fan.

Finally, the winner for my application is the W211. The core is 25.25 x 17.56, very close to my 26.8 x 18.1. It appears to use the same 600W fan and wiring. Like the W203, they are plentiful used, as low as $25 on car-part.com. I estimate with shipping you could grab one of these for $50 shipped. I missed getting one for $30 at my semi-local JY.

The issue then becomes the fan connector. All of these use a 4-pin connector that illogically mounts upside down so water can intrude. The connector is not available in the US. It is available on Ali Express for about $16.x shipped with terminals and seals. I could not get into the site today to link it, but if you search for Mercedes fan connector at least two will come up. It takes some patience to search that site.

Today I made another 60 mile trip to the JY and was able to score 3x of these connectors for $12 OTD, plus over 2 feet of heavy gauge wire. I stripped two of them and the internal conductor measured about .16", which equates to 6 AWG! Two came from C-class cars and a third came from a Volvo! I didn't write down the model since it was close to closing and about to rain. I saw it only uses one small wire, it is the purple wire in the below pics. You can see the corrosion on the MB connectors, some of this was likely due to the connectors sitting in the open..

I will take these apart as I did the others, but it looks like they use the same 9.5mm female terminals as the ones we've seen in this thread. I ordered 100 of these from Ali Express ($7 shipped), they should be here by Christmas! My plan at this point is to buy one of the used W211 fans and wire it in to my truck when I replace the clutch fan. The ECM will be able to control it after I reflash the fan settings from a 2005 Corvette on it. I also plan on if possible relocating the connector so it is pointing down not up, and using some Hylomar on the seal.

I'm also attaching a PDF showing my planned (so far) wiring diagram to adapt the W211 fan to my truck.

Here are pics from today:


All of this cost $12 out the door!


Volvo connector. Note the single small terminal. It was still plugged in to a fan, so it was cleaner.


Top of MB connector showing two small wires.


MB connector corrosion.

 

Those MB connectors look like Kostel connectors, same brand as the big C6 Corvette fan controller connector.

Andrew

 

The numbers on the connector housing are:
Top near terminal lock-
>PA 6/6T
GF30<
My guess is this is the type of material, as 6/6 is a common type of nylon.

Bottom-
Looks like a K in a circle symbol- Kostal? Either that or they were made by Circle K!
09442401 (Googled it and it looks like a Kostal PN, verified Mouser cannot get them)
Sideways 1 536711
Date code of an arrow with 03 pointing to 7 (scale of 1-12)
MB logo
2205450329

The Volvo connector had different bottom numbers-
Same K symbol, then 09442491 (Mouser no longer carries them, minimum order of 600)
Sideways 2 536715
Date code 07 pointing to 8.
Nothing else below these.

The 9.5mm female terminals look identical to those already pulled from the other connector, other than they were for 6 AWG vs 10. There is a clear nylon terminal lock that must be pulled loose with a small flat blade screwdriver. It pops out and back in. I had a Mouser order arrive today & it has the 9.5mm terminals and seals along with a 60A maxi fuse. I found two lengths of 6 AWG red and black welding wire from another project and will put them to use here. I'm debating using a Bussman breaker on the fan power feed.

The smaller terminals are different. They look to be about 2.8mm, as a GT280 Metri Pack terminal I had on hand fit into them. I'll add in some pics later. My GM service manual only goes to 2005, so I can't look up any terminals or connectors past that year. They are not MP 280, as those are square and the ones here are more rectangular- flatter.

UPDATE- I found the smaller ones on the Ballenger Motorsports website.

They do not give a Kostal PN, but at 39 cents each they are affordable and it's a US source. They use regular MP 280 cable seals. Mouser sells a bunch of Kostal 2.8mm female terminals (called SLK), but they don't have any pics to ID them

The Mazda and Dorman fan controllers also arrived today- the Dorman one is a joke. It's about the size of a book of matches. I would use it on a computer fan but not anything automotive. The Mazda controller is much more substantial. Still don't have any connectors for it though.

I ordered the W211 fan this morning from a JY in the Pittsburg area- very helpful girl that answered. $30 plus $20 shipped and I've got a 600W fan on the way. Once I get this truck sorted out, I will probably sell off this extra stuff.

 

My $50 shipped E500 fan arrived today. It's like 20" in diameter with a shroud that is like 25x19 (there is a part of the housing that goes above the shroud). Should be a decent fit for my core. I used a cheap eBay PWM generator and tested it tonight connected to a spare battery via a 60 amp maxi fuse. This thing kicks butt and moves serious air. Best of all, it's thinner than the Mark 8 fan I currently have on my Durango. Forgot to add, I left the 12V ignition wire off and the fan worked fine. Minimum duty cycle at 12 Hz was about 15%. I ran it up to 90% as a maximum.

Bonus: I got another 4-pin high amp fan connector with the fan.

Now I'm trying to iron out if I need to use HP Tuners for the fan settings.

 

EDIT- I think this has been solved. Apparently the data for my W211 fan is different, as I have tested it at 5, 10, 50, and 100 Hz. It works better at 100 Hz than 10, so I should be good to go with the controller I'm looking at.

I have a question for the PWM experts here- the W211 fan works so well I'd like to add one to my Durango LM4 swap to replace the Mark 8 fan and 2x 70A relays. Can't go wrong @ $50 shipped! Here's the deal-
AFAIK, the W211 fan is spec'd @ 10 HZ, I think something like 10-15 Hz. To control it via the PCM, I'd need to use the E40, but my truck uses a cable throttle (E40 is DBW only and I don't want to add in the pedal and TAC for a couple of reasons). All I need is a PWM signal for this, the heavy wiring is a piece of cake for this truck since I already have it in place for the MK 8 fan.

I can use a trinary switch to output a +12V signal for high fan when AC pressure is high. I even found one with specs close to my Dodge system. The next issue is coolant temp;

Lingenfelter makes a PWM controller that can interface with GM sensors, so the GM ECT sensor can be used for it. A nice thing about this controller is it does not power the fan(s) so high-amp fans are not an issue.

The hurdle I'm left with is the controller has fixed Hz options. The closest to the MB fan's 10 Hz are either 2 Hz or 50 Hz. I did use my PWM generator at both frequencies and both controlled the fan. The fan is a Bosch fan, and Lingenfelter has settings for a Bosch fan (0 130 706 81) of 50 Hz, 5% off, duty cycles of 15% minimum, 85% maximum. The duty cycles are perfect for this fan. I looked up the 0 130 706 81. It is from an Audi and also rated at 600W.

Will it harm the fan running it at either 2 or 50 Hz? Is one the lesser of two evils or are neither any good?
Worst case, could I buy one of these and add in or reprogram a 10Hz option? I do have an inquiry in to someone that sells those.

Thanks for any help!