Project GatTagO

iTrader: (7)

With the radiator dimensions you posted earlier, I would use the 850 watt 6th gen Camaro fan with the SPAL controller. I know you didn't want to use anything with a temp probe, but it seems like the easiest solution.

thesameguy

That is 100% my fallback! I tried last week to find that fan locally and couldn't come up with a single one... lots of dual fan setups from (I assume) V6 cars, but no single V8 fan in town. I'm really hesitant to drop than kind of cash on a fan til I can see how it fits. Given the amount of time & effort I've put into the embarrassingly 100% stock build I'm probably past the point of KISS... If I can get exactly the right result driving a fan with Arduino, and learn something in the process, I'm down to try. I just don't have anything approaching an electronics background to know where to start... but, I like to learn. I'm definitely of the "teach a man to fish" persuasion.

stevieturbo

Or just use some fans that are simple off and on lol. No fuckery required.

V8 Supra Builder

iTrader: (37)

LKQ can have some decent deals- I bought a couple of my Gen 3 motors back when an L33 had around 30K miles and was not an arm & a leg! A nice thing with them is they will (or maybe used to) transfer parts from a nearby yard at no cost. I built the Supra when I lived in another part of the state, and they shipped the LM7 from a yard that was like 100 miles away.

That said, I use car-part.com on a regular basis for online buying, including fans. I found my current LM4 there within 200 miles for $500. There is a JY in Ohio as I recall (Marshalls??) that had incredible prices on fans. I got a Taurus from them for like $50 shipped, and I think the name of the place where I got the XC90 fan is listed in what I posted. You can use the search function on car-part. I used rockauto.com to get an idea of the fans based upon radiator core size.I agree with Andrew about the Corvette/Camaro fans. They use a relatively simple and affordable controller and the later models have incredible airflow. In my experience, they are not cheap though. If you go that route and need one of the USCAR connectors/terminals, I have some on hand since I made a bulk purchase from China earlier this year. I'll let you have one for my cost & shipping,

LOL the only experience I have with a BMW is the 525 E34 I swapped an L33 into, and I used a Mark 8 fan on it. I swore off BMWs (except for bikes) after that one!

If you can download a shop manual it will often reveal valuable info, such as temp sensor values.

V8 Supra Builder

iTrader: (37)

Aftermarket C6 fan for $113 shipped on eBay:
Fan
Sounds too good to be true, but that seller has sold over 100 of them and has over 99% FB. The Mercedes fan in my Rainier is an aftermarket I got via Amazon Warehouse.The only issue I had with it was a hum at low speeds, and I was able to change the PWM setting in HP Tuners to eliminate that. LOL, the fan outlasted the engine in that truck as I am rebuilding it now.

EDIT-
Here's a YT video where the guy measures & tests the late model dual truck and single Camaro fans:

Project GatTagO

iTrader: (7)

Another great option is the 2008 Ford Fusion fan assembly, MOTORCRAFT RF240. It uses the same controller as the C6 Corvette, so I have to believe that it is a similar, 400 watt fan. That Motorcraft part number includes the controller for under $200. Uses the same round Yazaki connector, but again, you need a way to generate the PWM- signal based on engine temperature.

Andrew

thesameguy

@stevieturbo - the PWM aspect is an "also nice" - the attraction to @LSswap 's approach is not having to fit any additional sensor or probe. That's a big deal for me. The things I learn can hopefully translate to other cars I own that have grown too big for their britches.

@V8 Supra Builder & @Project GatTagO - I'm liking the C6 & Fusion options... I think both shrouds could be modified to fit my space. I'll see what my buddy comes up with on a price for a 3-series fan and go from there. If a little more work on the front end gets me a higher power fan with an embedded controller it's not such a bad situation. If I end up with a few extra fans kicking around, eh, you can never have too many fans kicking around.

Project GatTagO

iTrader: (7)

The Motorcraft option is nice because it has the controller and the related wiring harness, all for under $200. I have not seen a similar package being sold for the C6 fan. I use the C6 fan and controller on my Cougar project, but I had to piece it all together. My Holley EFI outputs the appropriate PWM- signal, so that makes life easier.

Andrew

stevieturbo

It may be "nice"...for whenever it is easy to implement.

When it is not easy...it is not so nice lol. Is it really worth the hassle in these instances ? Have you ever had such a problem with a regular fan...that this has become a necessity ?

thesameguy

Nothing is a necessity - I could keep using the stock mechanical fan. The point here is to save some underhood congestion, maybe improve fuel economy a bit, and not add an extra sensor or switch. It's definitely worth some time & effort to me.

stevieturbo

Which is exactly why a regular electric fan is the easiest option for you.

PWM adds complication you do not need. Your ecu will already be able to trigger a relay for a fan ( assuming you are using an LS ecu or any half modern ecu from the last 20+ years )

thesameguy

Unfortunately my Bosch EDC16C2 ECM cannot trigger an electric fan at the correct temperature. Had it been able to, I definitely would have pursued that approach.

stevieturbo

Ahh right, then it'll be a full independent system you need, with some sort of temperature sensor or switch somewhere.

V8 Supra Builder

iTrader: (37)

I fell into the short-attention span trap here. I presumed you were working with an LS engine, but I see you have a diesel Jeep. That ECU looks like it is a Daimler-Benz item from what I've read, and putting the known info together means you likely have a mid 2000 Jeep. Perhaps a 2005-06 Liberty since those had a diesel option? I looked up the coolant temp sensor for those, and it is the same as many other Mopars circa late 90's-2000's, such as the Durango. While my truck is a 1998 and does not use that sensor, the 2000 model year does. I have that shop manual, and it describes the coolant sensor as:

.

I didn't see exact specs for the sensor other than it operates on 5V from the PCM.

This is relevant because the eBay PWM controller I linked can use a NTC sensor. I'll attach a pic of the first page instruction sheet for it that says as much.

The simplest solution IMO: I'd suggest mechanically mounting one of the PWM fans mentioned here and using that controller. As I said, Gene the seller is fabulous. He has spent a LOT of time with me on the PWM issue on my swap and now on trying to get the Dodge tach working via his tach adapter. FWIW, he answered a lot of questions before I ever bought anything from him.

V8 Supra Builder

iTrader: (37)

One other fan suggestion- 2016+ Cadillac CTS (RA shows it as the same as the ATS and Camaros of the same years). The base 2.0 turbo is shown on car-part.com as using a 600W fan. I looked up the core on RA and it is within your range at 19.13 H x 20.63 W. I found one of the fans for $150+ shipping on car-part in PA (All Foreign Auto Parts). If I recall correctly, I've done business with them as well since the link was purple (prior visit). That would be worth a call IMO.

stevieturbo

You cannot simply share 2 wire temperature sensors with multiple devices as it will skew the readings.

Unless the "second" device has no internal pullups, you must use a dedicated sensor for each device.

And pretty my all engines with an ecu use the temperature sensor......doesn't mean they use readings from it to decide to turn a fan off or on. But it is of course an important sensor for the starting and running of the engine.
Some very old may still have a separate temperature switch for a fan, although that is fairly rare.

V8 Supra Builder

iTrader: (37)

That's not exactly what the instructions I posted say.

The instructions posted allow for two scenarios- first an OEM type sensor, which the *speculated* diesel Jeep has, and the second an aftermarket/DIY sensor exclusively for this device. In the second scenario, use of an external pullup resistor is documented, so it appears the device has no internal pullup. I know one of the issues I had on my Durango was the use of a binary switch to power on the fan when the AC pressure was at a certain point. I found a Ford switch that was close to the OEM Dodge one, and Gene advised to use an external pullup on that circuit.

As for the first part, if the ECU controls a fan, then most certainly it uses a sensor to know when to activate it. If it does not, as you stated, it still needs to know the coolant temp for going into closed loop. I recall older GM cars using a sensor for the ECM and one for the dash gauge and/or a fan. My Durango now runs two PCMs- A Dodge for gauges, cruise, and AC, and GM for engine and transmission. Due to physical limits, I used an aftermarket coolant temp sensor that was an easier fit into the GM head but still had the Dodge resistance values. The sensor in the other head is OEM GM and connected to the GM PCM via a 2-wire circuit. It is not used for a fan in this application, but the same sensor is used in other cars & trucks that do have an electric fan. I double checked the part number with Gene, and it's good to go for tapping that circuit for the PWM controller.

What I posted about a diesel Jeep was a deduction on my part. Looking up a 2005 Jeep Liberty diesel, the core is 19.88" H x 20.19" W, so it remains a good guess as to what is in play here. It's also worth noting that per the RA catalog that vehicle came with a decent sized electric fan that is exclusive to the Liberty, and it also uses a clutch fan. Seems very similar to the later first gen Durangos.

If the member posts the year & model of his Jeep, then that will narrow down greatly what he needs to do.

Forcefed86

iTrader: (4)

I think the big appeal for brushless is the fact that they knock the socks off basically every brushed fan out there. A fans rating for open flow in free air means very little. Put load on that brushed fan behind a radiator, and the amount it flows is cut in half (or more). A brushless fan with a similar open air CFM rate typically flows double what a brushed fan will when put under a load. No monster voltage/amp spike on initial startups like a brushed fan... Less heavy duty wiring/relays required etc. I have what looks like an 18" monster from a BMW I picked up for $60. I haven't gotten to play with it yet to figure out the wiring, but id bet it would flow quite a bit more than any of the aftermarket brushed fans.

LSswap

Input impedence for an A/D analog input arduino port is 100 megohms or more. There are no internal pullups on analog input ports.

thesameguy

You guys are the best!

@V8 Supra Builder - you are indeed correct the subject vehicle is the unusual 2005-2006 Liberty CRD. Your detective skills are solid! I always have a pile of 30+ year old cars around, and I bought the Jeep to be the "new car" for hauling the dog and so I could enjoy trouble-free trips to Tahoe & Reno... This is a lot less fun than it initially seems:



The Jeep, however, has been one struggle after another. I somehow manage to build totally reliable '80s turbo cars but can't get a modern Jeep to behave itself. I'm hoping this "engine out, touch everything" gets me where I wanna be.

I emailed Gene last night, and he didn't expect any issues coupling his fan controller to the factory ECM's Bosch sensor. I *strongly* want to try and get this done with Arduino, but I'm thinking I'm going to pick up his controller as a plan B. That XR4Ti up there also needs a revised fan solution so whatever doesn't get used in the Jeep will get used on the XR (or somewhere else). I'm very comfortable with that. LIke @Forcefed86 suggested there is *always* use for a PWM controller & brushless fan.

What Gene said:

"This will work fine with any factory Bosch sensor, and the push-pull output is 12V level. The open collector output has a weak (10K) pullup to 12V and can be trimmed to 5V if needed with an external 7.5K resistor or a 5.1V zener diode. Thanks for your interest!"

@Forcefed86 - Do you know what BMW fan you picked up? Or, from about what year? I think all the fans through about '08 (depending on model) were "gen 1" fans and everything more recent is a "gen 2" fan. I'm making those designations up, but basically there is an old-style and a new-style. They both apparently run on 12v PWM from the DME - the difference may be brushed vs brushless - and some ostensibly subtle changes to duty cycle vs. fan speed. If it's a more recent style, it should be the same control as the F30 fan I'll pick up today or Wednesday. I have an email out to the guys that tuned my friend's 335i to see if he knows anything specific.

@V8 Supra Builder - The 3rd gen CTS fan was my fourth option that I couldn't remember - JK Wrangler, GM Alpha (ATS/Camaro), and the CTS. I just got an email back from an ebay seller this morning. He says "The cooling fan assembly measures 21-1/2" H X 23-1/4" W". I asked for measurements excluding any mounting ears, but I'm not sure that's what he did.