methanol direct port injection ... worth it ?
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Joined: Nov 2003
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From: Norn Iron
And I'm sure if you were to pay him, he'd do any test you wanted.
He's spending a hell of a lot of time to give info from tests already done, to everyone, for free. There's nothing negative about that
If others feel they can do better...go for it, we'd all love to see it too. Presumably someone is footing the bill for it, but IMO he's doing a far better job than Engine Masters, which recently has been cringeworthy, testing some very boring stuff.
I cancelled my subscription to Motor Trend.
A lot rate open flow at big numbers, maybe 3.75 to 4.0 LPM
In reality, at pressure, with boost via a nozzle...real world flows are much much lower. I extensively tested my AEM pump with various nozzles and at different duties etc. Real world I deemed it to have only around 1200cc of effective flow regardless of nozzles. ie. 1.2LPM.
Bigger nozzles just seen spray pattern turn to **** but no actual extra flow anyway. Or not enough to justify the poor spray.
In actual use, max pressure ever seen in the line is around 140psi. All these 200psi, 300psi claims etc...I presume are either against a dead head, or with extremely small nozzles.
But at least with a port system, you are helping to ensure a more equal flow to each cylinder.
That still seems to be a test that is unclear as to how good or bad some pre TB injection systems may be. I'd suspect a carb intake car might fair better as those manifolds were intended for wet distributions in the first place. But for other dry intakes....it'd be nice to see some individual cylinder lambda readings under load with some systems and different intakes, and the thermocouple in each runner that RH/Engine Masters did would be welcome to see as an actual test run at the same time, rather than 8 tests run at different times, 1 for each runner.
And even better held under load for maybe 10-15secs to get a proper test for heat soak and to allow the TC to stabilise, as all IAT sensors and most thermocouples are very slow to respond.
In reality, at pressure, with boost via a nozzle...real world flows are much much lower. I extensively tested my AEM pump with various nozzles and at different duties etc. Real world I deemed it to have only around 1200cc of effective flow regardless of nozzles. ie. 1.2LPM.
Bigger nozzles just seen spray pattern turn to **** but no actual extra flow anyway. Or not enough to justify the poor spray.
In actual use, max pressure ever seen in the line is around 140psi. All these 200psi, 300psi claims etc...I presume are either against a dead head, or with extremely small nozzles.
But at least with a port system, you are helping to ensure a more equal flow to each cylinder.
That still seems to be a test that is unclear as to how good or bad some pre TB injection systems may be. I'd suspect a carb intake car might fair better as those manifolds were intended for wet distributions in the first place. But for other dry intakes....it'd be nice to see some individual cylinder lambda readings under load with some systems and different intakes, and the thermocouple in each runner that RH/Engine Masters did would be welcome to see as an actual test run at the same time, rather than 8 tests run at different times, 1 for each runner.
And even better held under load for maybe 10-15secs to get a proper test for heat soak and to allow the TC to stabilise, as all IAT sensors and most thermocouples are very slow to respond.
AEM pump looks like a repurposed agricultural pump, get a better meth pump: https://prometh.com/collections/pump...18889078767685
And I'm sure if you were to pay him, he'd do any test you wanted.
He's spending a hell of a lot of time to give infofrom tests already known done, to everyone, for free. There's nothing negative about that
If others feel they can do better...go for it, we'd all love to see it too. Presumably someone is footing the bill for it, but IMO he's doing a far better job than Engine Masters, which recently has been cringeworthy, testing some very boring stuff.
I cancelled my subscription to Motor Trend.
He's spending a hell of a lot of time to give info
If others feel they can do better...go for it, we'd all love to see it too. Presumably someone is footing the bill for it, but IMO he's doing a far better job than Engine Masters, which recently has been cringeworthy, testing some very boring stuff.
I cancelled my subscription to Motor Trend.
Fixed for you. I actually enjoy his videos. I'm simply stating that if his test scenarios were slightly tweaked the data and comparisons would be much more interesting, "there's nothing negative about that". 9 Second Club
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 13,616
Likes: 185
From: Norn Iron
AEM pump looks like a repurposed agricultural pump, get a better meth pump: https://prometh.com/collections/pump...18889078767685
The Prometh pump looks very good, but I'd like to see some independent tests before shelling out any money. But it seems nobody does actually test any of the pumps.
I had some great results with my grand national. 2 progressive 15gph nozzles of straight meth. Went from 12lbs and 16* of timing to 25lbs and 25* on 91 octane. That was the sweet spot for that combo at the track anyway. I couldn’t spray even half that on 50/50 mixes. Had to run 100% meth to see the big benefits. The distribution on that manifold is pretty good by comparison. It feeds down into the runners like a carb’d intake and they actually make a “distribution plate” you sandwich between plenum that distributes airflow more evenly. I think the OEM LS manifolds are pretty darnn bad in general, distribution wise.
Do the heat markings on your plugs vary a bunch? If you want quick and easy and don’t want to get too involved I wouldn’t mess with direct injection.
Flow VS pressure is calculated like so for nozzles rated at 100psi. (most are)
1. Divide new pressure by 100 psi (standard nozzle pressure)
Example: 140 psi divided 100 = 1.4
2. Obtain square root with calculator
Example 1.4 sq-root = 1.1832159
3. Multiply result by nozzle size at 100 psi
Example: 1.1832159 x 1.00 = 1.18 GPH You have to remember flow drops a ton on the common pumps advertised high pressures. A “300psi PUMP” may only flow 15GPH at that pressure. SO tuning could be a nightmare. To make it easy to tune… If you plan to run 20lbs set max pressure to 120. Set it up off the car first IMO as well. Test with water.
Nozzles I use can be had for $5.25 each. These are the same nozzles companies charge $25+ for. Better tanks can be had MUCH cheaper than the alky sites sell as well.
I used the devils own pump on several kits. They have the manufacturer flow rating in GPM VS pressure on the website. I’ve had the same pump on my Rx7 for a LONG time. And I don’t maintain it as I should.
http://www.alcohol-injection.com/en/...tion-pump.html
That pro meth pump sounds beefy, but a little pricy. Wish they had a Flow VS pressure chart. “Supports 1600hp” on straight meth means diddly. Be nice to see what they flow “X” pressures. Still think you’d need more than one pump in most cases to take full advantage of direct injection and 100% meth.
To keep it simple 1 cheapish pump per bank with 10 gph nozzles in each runner and PWM the pumps. Most aftermarket ECU's could run it all semi safely with AFR safeties and auto tune.
Currently I PWM 1 pump with my MS3. Run 150psi on 2 10gph nozzles of 50/50 at each turbo inlet on my 5.3. No IC. Very cheap DIY setup. Plugs look great.
Dont want to get too off topic, but man I've been watching old Holdners stuff too and he kinda kills me. Same tests over and over and alot of his data and statements are plain wrong. His water meth results and data and explanations are **** poor! And Why does the guy insist on slapping $2500 heads on $400 engines? Then rarely turns up the boost past like 15lbs or revs them very high. But I still watch'm!
Free? Successful "You Tubers" are making quite a bit these days? Last I looked it was like $3 per 1000 views and up to $18 per AD for 1000 views. Aren’t they sponsored to? By Holley and many others? Was guessing that’s why he doesn’t want to dive to far into making the OEM long block really perform as they could. It would prove a lot of his sponsors stuff isn’t needed. Which is understandable.
Do the heat markings on your plugs vary a bunch? If you want quick and easy and don’t want to get too involved I wouldn’t mess with direct injection.
Flow VS pressure is calculated like so for nozzles rated at 100psi. (most are)
1. Divide new pressure by 100 psi (standard nozzle pressure)
Example: 140 psi divided 100 = 1.4
2. Obtain square root with calculator
Example 1.4 sq-root = 1.1832159
3. Multiply result by nozzle size at 100 psi
Example: 1.1832159 x 1.00 = 1.18 GPH
Nozzles I use can be had for $5.25 each. These are the same nozzles companies charge $25+ for. Better tanks can be had MUCH cheaper than the alky sites sell as well.
I used the devils own pump on several kits. They have the manufacturer flow rating in GPM VS pressure on the website. I’ve had the same pump on my Rx7 for a LONG time. And I don’t maintain it as I should.
http://www.alcohol-injection.com/en/...tion-pump.html
That pro meth pump sounds beefy, but a little pricy. Wish they had a Flow VS pressure chart. “Supports 1600hp” on straight meth means diddly. Be nice to see what they flow “X” pressures. Still think you’d need more than one pump in most cases to take full advantage of direct injection and 100% meth.
To keep it simple 1 cheapish pump per bank with 10 gph nozzles in each runner and PWM the pumps. Most aftermarket ECU's could run it all semi safely with AFR safeties and auto tune.
Currently I PWM 1 pump with my MS3. Run 150psi on 2 10gph nozzles of 50/50 at each turbo inlet on my 5.3. No IC. Very cheap DIY setup. Plugs look great.
Free? Successful "You Tubers" are making quite a bit these days? Last I looked it was like $3 per 1000 views and up to $18 per AD for 1000 views. Aren’t they sponsored to? By Holley and many others? Was guessing that’s why he doesn’t want to dive to far into making the OEM long block really perform as they could. It would prove a lot of his sponsors stuff isn’t needed. Which is understandable.
9 Second Club
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 13,616
Likes: 185
From: Norn Iron
And Why does the guy insist on slapping $2500 heads on $400 engines? Then rarely turns up the boost past like 15lbs or revs them very high. But I still watch'm!
Free? Successful "You Tubers" are making quite a bit these days? Last I looked it was like $3 per 1000 views and up to $18 per AD for 1000 views. Aren’t they sponsored to? By Holley and many others? Was guessing that’s why he doesn’t want to dive to far into making the OEM long block really perform as they could. It would prove a lot of his sponsors stuff isn’t needed. Which is understandable.
Free? Successful "You Tubers" are making quite a bit these days? Last I looked it was like $3 per 1000 views and up to $18 per AD for 1000 views. Aren’t they sponsored to? By Holley and many others? Was guessing that’s why he doesn’t want to dive to far into making the OEM long block really perform as they could. It would prove a lot of his sponsors stuff isn’t needed. Which is understandable.
What would be the point in building say an $3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8k bottom end, when for the purposes of a test it wouldnt make a damned bit of difference vs the $400 one ?
That's just throwing money away. Heads do make a difference, cams do make a difference, intakes do make a difference, boost/coolers/blah blah blah does make a difference.
The short motor...will not make a difference it it's ability to make power vs an expensive short motor of same dimensions. But will that short motor do it as reliably and long term as a better motor ? Likely not.
And usually he revs them until power starts falling. Again for the purposes of testing, and when 90% of users wont be going over those revs either....what's the point of going higher ? The graphs are already done, any trends on power/torque have already been proven. Testing isnt about just finding the highest peak number and disregarding all else.
And when he's already proven a SBE can do near 1600hp....in terms of sponsors, surely he's already proven nothing fancy is needed ? Except that's totally irrelevant.
...
Dont want to get too off topic, but man I've been watching old Holdners stuff too and he kinda kills me. Same tests over and over and alot of his data and statements are plain wrong. His water meth results and data and explanations are **** poor! And Why does the guy insist on slapping $2500 heads on $400 engines? Then rarely turns up the boost past like 15lbs or revs them very high. But I still watch'm!
Free? Successful "You Tubers" are making quite a bit these days? Last I looked it was like $3 per 1000 views and up to $18 per AD for 1000 views. Aren’t they sponsored to? By Holley and many others? Was guessing that’s why he doesn’t want to dive to far into making the OEM long block really perform as they could. It would prove a lot of his sponsors stuff isn’t needed. Which is understandable.
Dont want to get too off topic, but man I've been watching old Holdners stuff too and he kinda kills me. Same tests over and over and alot of his data and statements are plain wrong. His water meth results and data and explanations are **** poor! And Why does the guy insist on slapping $2500 heads on $400 engines? Then rarely turns up the boost past like 15lbs or revs them very high. But I still watch'm!
Free? Successful "You Tubers" are making quite a bit these days? Last I looked it was like $3 per 1000 views and up to $18 per AD for 1000 views. Aren’t they sponsored to? By Holley and many others? Was guessing that’s why he doesn’t want to dive to far into making the OEM long block really perform as they could. It would prove a lot of his sponsors stuff isn’t needed. Which is understandable.
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Verdad Gallardo 9 Second Club
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 13,616
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From: Norn Iron
But recent EM tests have been pretty boring.
I actually liked the oil test because it showed that at high rpm the engine actually had BETTER pressure with LESS OIL.
9 Second Club
Joined: Nov 2003
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From: Norn Iron
But yes it was interesting and surprising, but almost impossible to apply to real world applications, other than a dry sump
Completely agree. Even straightline stuff with traction I'd never want less oil. I was surprised too at the pressure graph when they kept dropping the oil level.
9 Second Club
Joined: Nov 2003
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From: Norn Iron
But it's all off topic lol
I thought the difference of something like 2 quarts was something like 10psi at certains RPM's? That seems like alot to me but I admit I don't recall specific numbers.
9 Second Club
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 13,616
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From: Norn Iron
9 Second Club
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 13,616
Likes: 185
From: Norn Iron
WOT when ?
I'm pretty sure the lifter bores in my block are not good ( as have replaced/tried absolutely everything else lol )...but under load at high rpm, it's not uncommon to see down into the 30's at times although usually a little over 40's. Of course it is rpm, load, temperature dependent.
I'll replace the block at some point...not exactly using the car at the minute anyway
I'm pretty sure the lifter bores in my block are not good ( as have replaced/tried absolutely everything else lol )...but under load at high rpm, it's not uncommon to see down into the 30's at times although usually a little over 40's. Of course it is rpm, load, temperature dependent.
I'll replace the block at some point...not exactly using the car at the minute anyway
WOT when ?
I'm pretty sure the lifter bores in my block are not good ( as have replaced/tried absolutely everything else lol )...but under load at high rpm, it's not uncommon to see down into the 30's at times although usually a little over 40's. Of course it is rpm, load, temperature dependent.
I'll replace the block at some point...not exactly using the car at the minute anyway
I'm pretty sure the lifter bores in my block are not good ( as have replaced/tried absolutely everything else lol )...but under load at high rpm, it's not uncommon to see down into the 30's at times although usually a little over 40's. Of course it is rpm, load, temperature dependent.
I'll replace the block at some point...not exactly using the car at the minute anyway
WOT high rpm.
9 Second Club
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 13,616
Likes: 185
From: Norn Iron
Of course...with a new block, I'd want a new CCW crank, and new pistons, and may as well do new rods lol
Although if $400 engines existed here...I'd be using one of those. The $400 engines you guys get...end up around £2k by the time anyone has them here ! lol