methanol direct port injection ... worth it ?
It's been apart several times changing different stuff to try and resolve it. Bearings have always been fine despite the pressure. Just given up now and will run it til I sort the block. There isnt anyone here that I'd ever trust to do the lifter bores...I'd doubt any are capable, as it seems like a tricky task. New block would be just as easy.
Of course...with a new block, I'd want a new CCW crank, and new pistons, and may as well do new rods lol
Although if $400 engines existed here...I'd be using one of those. The $400 engines you guys get...end up around £2k by the time anyone has them here ! lol
Of course...with a new block, I'd want a new CCW crank, and new pistons, and may as well do new rods lol
Although if $400 engines existed here...I'd be using one of those. The $400 engines you guys get...end up around £2k by the time anyone has them here ! lol
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From: Norn Iron
Depends how much you can get the parts for.
Shipping an entire motor on its own is bloody expensive, and used motors can be difficult. Then we get stung on something like 5% import duty, then another 20% tax on top.
And to do it legit commercially....people gotta make profit, markets for such things arent huge.
It's just the way it is really.
Buying direct from a junkyard is difficult, as I'm sure most wouldnt be bothered with the hassle of crating and shipping, and the paperwork for exporting for something at only $400.
And then is it worth the risk for the buyer here buying such a thing sight unseen ?
And it's more expensive to ship stuff to here Northern Ireland, than it is the likes of major cities in England
Hell, I was considering buying an LS9 block from Summit when they had them fairly cheap....but it was gonna be around $1000 to ship the damn thing here !!! LOL
Yes free.....you or I do not have to pay for it. That's free.
What would be the point in building say an $3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8k bottom end, when for the purposes of a test it wouldnt make a damned bit of difference vs the $400 one ?
That's just throwing money away. Heads do make a difference, cams do make a difference, intakes do make a difference, boost/coolers/blah blah blah does make a difference.
The short motor...will not make a difference it it's ability to make power vs an expensive short motor of same dimensions. But will that short motor do it as reliably and long term as a better motor ? Likely not.
And usually he revs them until power starts falling. Again for the purposes of testing, and when 90% of users wont be going over those revs either....what's the point of going higher ? The graphs are already done, any trends on power/torque have already been proven. Testing isnt about just finding the highest peak number and disregarding all else.
And when he's already proven a SBE can do near 1600hp....in terms of sponsors, surely he's already proven nothing fancy is needed ? Except that's totally irrelevant.
What would be the point in building say an $3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8k bottom end, when for the purposes of a test it wouldnt make a damned bit of difference vs the $400 one ?
That's just throwing money away. Heads do make a difference, cams do make a difference, intakes do make a difference, boost/coolers/blah blah blah does make a difference.
The short motor...will not make a difference it it's ability to make power vs an expensive short motor of same dimensions. But will that short motor do it as reliably and long term as a better motor ? Likely not.
And usually he revs them until power starts falling. Again for the purposes of testing, and when 90% of users wont be going over those revs either....what's the point of going higher ? The graphs are already done, any trends on power/torque have already been proven. Testing isnt about just finding the highest peak number and disregarding all else.
And when he's already proven a SBE can do near 1600hp....in terms of sponsors, surely he's already proven nothing fancy is needed ? Except that's totally irrelevant.
Ah I thought you were in England. That's still some steep stuff. I assumed it wouldn't be too terrible to order direct from summit or someone for rotating stuff. But I guess 20+% for everything doesn't help on top of shipping a block internationally being steep.
Thread Starter
Teching In
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I had some great results with my grand national. 2 progressive 15gph nozzles of straight meth. Went from 12lbs and 16* of timing to 25lbs and 25* on 91 octane. That was the sweet spot for that combo at the track anyway. I couldn’t spray even half that on 50/50 mixes. Had to run 100% meth to see the big benefits. The distribution on that manifold is pretty good by comparison. It feeds down into the runners like a carb’d intake and they actually make a “distribution plate” you sandwich between plenum that distributes airflow more evenly. I think the OEM LS manifolds are pretty darnn bad in general, distribution wise.
Do the heat markings on your plugs vary a bunch? If you want quick and easy and don’t want to get too involved I wouldn’t mess with direct injection.
Flow VS pressure is calculated like so for nozzles rated at 100psi. (most are)
You have to remember flow drops a ton on the common pumps advertised high pressures. A “300psi PUMP” may only flow 15GPH at that pressure. SO tuning could be a nightmare. To make it easy to tune… If you plan to run 20lbs set max pressure to 120. Set it up off the car first IMO as well. Test with water.
Nozzles I use can be had for $5.25 each. These are the same nozzles companies charge $25+ for. Better tanks can be had MUCH cheaper than the alky sites sell as well.
I used the devils own pump on several kits. They have the manufacturer flow rating in GPM VS pressure on the website. I’ve had the same pump on my Rx7 for a LONG time. And I don’t maintain it as I should.
http://www.alcohol-injection.com/en/...tion-pump.html
That pro meth pump sounds beefy, but a little pricy. Wish they had a Flow VS pressure chart. “Supports 1600hp” on straight meth means diddly. Be nice to see what they flow “X” pressures. Still think you’d need more than one pump in most cases to take full advantage of direct injection and 100% meth.
To keep it simple 1 cheapish pump per bank with 10 gph nozzles in each runner and PWM the pumps. Most aftermarket ECU's could run it all semi safely with AFR safeties and auto tune.
Currently I PWM 1 pump with my MS3. Run 150psi on 2 10gph nozzles of 50/50 at each turbo inlet on my 5.3. No IC. Very cheap DIY setup. Plugs look great.
Dont want to get too off topic, but man I've been watching old Holdners stuff too and he kinda kills me. Same tests over and over and alot of his data and statements are plain wrong. His water meth results and data and explanations are **** poor! And Why does the guy insist on slapping $2500 heads on $400 engines? Then rarely turns up the boost past like 15lbs or revs them very high. But I still watch'm!
Free? Successful "You Tubers" are making quite a bit these days? Last I looked it was like $3 per 1000 views and up to $18 per AD for 1000 views. Aren’t they sponsored to? By Holley and many others? Was guessing that’s why he doesn’t want to dive to far into making the OEM long block really perform as they could. It would prove a lot of his sponsors stuff isn’t needed. Which is understandable.
Do the heat markings on your plugs vary a bunch? If you want quick and easy and don’t want to get too involved I wouldn’t mess with direct injection.
Flow VS pressure is calculated like so for nozzles rated at 100psi. (most are)
You have to remember flow drops a ton on the common pumps advertised high pressures. A “300psi PUMP” may only flow 15GPH at that pressure. SO tuning could be a nightmare. To make it easy to tune… If you plan to run 20lbs set max pressure to 120. Set it up off the car first IMO as well. Test with water.
Nozzles I use can be had for $5.25 each. These are the same nozzles companies charge $25+ for. Better tanks can be had MUCH cheaper than the alky sites sell as well.
I used the devils own pump on several kits. They have the manufacturer flow rating in GPM VS pressure on the website. I’ve had the same pump on my Rx7 for a LONG time. And I don’t maintain it as I should.
http://www.alcohol-injection.com/en/...tion-pump.html
That pro meth pump sounds beefy, but a little pricy. Wish they had a Flow VS pressure chart. “Supports 1600hp” on straight meth means diddly. Be nice to see what they flow “X” pressures. Still think you’d need more than one pump in most cases to take full advantage of direct injection and 100% meth.
To keep it simple 1 cheapish pump per bank with 10 gph nozzles in each runner and PWM the pumps. Most aftermarket ECU's could run it all semi safely with AFR safeties and auto tune.
Currently I PWM 1 pump with my MS3. Run 150psi on 2 10gph nozzles of 50/50 at each turbo inlet on my 5.3. No IC. Very cheap DIY setup. Plugs look great.
Dont want to get too off topic, but man I've been watching old Holdners stuff too and he kinda kills me. Same tests over and over and alot of his data and statements are plain wrong. His water meth results and data and explanations are **** poor! And Why does the guy insist on slapping $2500 heads on $400 engines? Then rarely turns up the boost past like 15lbs or revs them very high. But I still watch'm!
Free? Successful "You Tubers" are making quite a bit these days? Last I looked it was like $3 per 1000 views and up to $18 per AD for 1000 views. Aren’t they sponsored to? By Holley and many others? Was guessing that’s why he doesn’t want to dive to far into making the OEM long block really perform as they could. It would prove a lot of his sponsors stuff isn’t needed. Which is understandable.
If you're blower limited changing compression isn't going to make more power because the blower can't flow anymore. The margin for error is much tighter with higher compression. I think I'd prefer another have point of compression lower for more cushion if I was to do it all over again.
but what in the hell was wrong with your setup that you couldn't do 12 degrees on 10psi?
Were you doing that **** on 87 octane?
Last edited by ddnspider; Apr 17, 2020 at 08:36 PM.
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It's been apart several times changing different stuff to try and resolve it. Bearings have always been fine despite the pressure. Just given up now and will run it til I sort the block. There isnt anyone here that I'd ever trust to do the lifter bores...I'd doubt any are capable, as it seems like a tricky task. New block would be just as easy.
Of course...with a new block, I'd want a new CCW crank, and new pistons, and may as well do new rods lol
Although if $400 engines existed here...I'd be using one of those. The $400 engines you guys get...end up around £2k by the time anyone has them here ! lol
Of course...with a new block, I'd want a new CCW crank, and new pistons, and may as well do new rods lol
Although if $400 engines existed here...I'd be using one of those. The $400 engines you guys get...end up around £2k by the time anyone has them here ! lol
Back on topic, although the cost would be higher, a dual fuel system with separate injectors (using a supporting fueling strategy - additional to gas) would be the best approach to accomplish the goal of excellent fueling when needed. Better tune-ability.
Thread Starter
Teching In
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If you're blower limited changing compression isn't going to make more power because the blower can't flow anymore. The margin for error is much tighter with higher compression. I think I'd prefer another have point of compression lower for more cushion if I was to do it all over again.
i guess i will turn up the boost to 20+ psi on dual nozzle setup and see the timing , then i will decide if direct port injection is needed with the poor local fuel which is almost equal to 89 us fuel
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From: Norn Iron
very interesting stuff ! i have stock LS intake manifold on 6.0 9:7 :1 compression auto trans, @15 psi before meth my max timing 11.5 and with meth 70 / 30 MIX with dual nozzle (snow 675 ml and 175ml ) my max timing was 18 and it is making 700whp in 100 degree weather , its very hot and the fuel is very bad here , i will rise the boost to 20 psi by maxing out my f1 and if i switched to direct port meth , maybe i will rise the compression to 10.5 using head gasket swap (it is 0.060 now ) and shooting for mid 800whp what do you guys think ?
Motor, heads, cam, what ? Was that timing optimised on a dyno, or just guessing ? And what fuel is bad ?
Higher compression may improve efficiency, but with poor fuel it's likely a backwards step. And the stock LS1 intake is well known for being one of the poorer performing factory intakes.
n/a, there are easy improvements of say 50hp available with a better intake...this will improve further with boost.
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From: Norn Iron
Not to high jack the OP's thread but for the sake of learning, it would be worthwhile to do a short block oiling system air check to see where significant loss is. Rotate crank 2 revs to check all lifter bores through full lift travel. Let us know what you find.
Back on topic, although the cost would be higher, a dual fuel system with separate injectors (using a supporting fueling strategy - additional to gas) would be the best approach to accomplish the goal of excellent fueling when needed. Better tune-ability.
Back on topic, although the cost would be higher, a dual fuel system with separate injectors (using a supporting fueling strategy - additional to gas) would be the best approach to accomplish the goal of excellent fueling when needed. Better tune-ability.
And whilst a full dual fuel setup would be "best"....in practical terms it's not so easy, and it doesnt really need to be fully tuneable, because the main fuel supply is.
Although the higher percentage of water is used...I would say the more tuneability you have with that, the better.
Thread Starter
Teching In
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You're not giving any detail about your setup at all. And surely an F1 should do 800hp with ease ?
Motor, heads, cam, what ? Was that timing optimised on a dyno, or just guessing ? And what fuel is bad ?
Higher compression may improve efficiency, but with poor fuel it's likely a backwards step. And the stock LS1 intake is well known for being one of the poorer performing factory intakes.
n/a, there are easy improvements of say 50hp available with a better intake...this will improve further with boost.
Motor, heads, cam, what ? Was that timing optimised on a dyno, or just guessing ? And what fuel is bad ?
Higher compression may improve efficiency, but with poor fuel it's likely a backwards step. And the stock LS1 intake is well known for being one of the poorer performing factory intakes.
n/a, there are easy improvements of say 50hp available with a better intake...this will improve further with boost.
Details:
L77 6.0 forged internals
Stock intake monifold
823 stock heads
230/240 610/612 @114 cam
Automatic 6 speed
Big air to air intercooled
timing was recorded on the street with hp tuners
The local pump gas here is poor and the weather is over 100f most of the year and vey humid
I don't know if I will hit 800 whp with 20 psi
but I will do it soon
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From: Norn Iron
Really..if you want to improve efficiency all round, which makes even more sense with poor fuel.
get better heads, get a better intake. No idea what IC you're using...but if you can, get a Garrett core.
This will all help you make more power, with less risk. I certainly would not consider removing the heads to change the HG...and putting stock heads back on.
I'm sure there's an easy 100-150hp available with the above parts, and likely with lower boost and less risk overall.
And if you're really trying to extract the best from the combo, tune it properly on a dyno, dont just guess timing, although more than likely with pump fuel you are knock limited anyway
but I'd be wanting to release the power from conventional means first, rather than using more meth etc.
get better heads, get a better intake. No idea what IC you're using...but if you can, get a Garrett core.
This will all help you make more power, with less risk. I certainly would not consider removing the heads to change the HG...and putting stock heads back on.
I'm sure there's an easy 100-150hp available with the above parts, and likely with lower boost and less risk overall.
And if you're really trying to extract the best from the combo, tune it properly on a dyno, dont just guess timing, although more than likely with pump fuel you are knock limited anyway
but I'd be wanting to release the power from conventional means first, rather than using more meth etc.
Thread Starter
Teching In
Joined: Apr 2020
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Really..if you want to improve efficiency all round, which makes even more sense with poor fuel.
get better heads, get a better intake. No idea what IC you're using...but if you can, get a Garrett core.
This will all help you make more power, with less risk. I certainly would not consider removing the heads to change the HG...and putting stock heads back on.
I'm sure there's an easy 100-150hp available with the above parts, and likely with lower boost and less risk overall.
And if you're really trying to extract the best from the combo, tune it properly on a dyno, dont just guess timing, although more than likely with pump fuel you are knock limited anyway
but I'd be wanting to release the power from conventional means first, rather than using more meth etc.
get better heads, get a better intake. No idea what IC you're using...but if you can, get a Garrett core.
This will all help you make more power, with less risk. I certainly would not consider removing the heads to change the HG...and putting stock heads back on.
I'm sure there's an easy 100-150hp available with the above parts, and likely with lower boost and less risk overall.
And if you're really trying to extract the best from the combo, tune it properly on a dyno, dont just guess timing, although more than likely with pump fuel you are knock limited anyway
but I'd be wanting to release the power from conventional means first, rather than using more meth etc.
I will wait until I find a deal locally for upgrading the heads
What intake monifold do you recommend?
According to my noob knowledge there is no gains in the intake monifold using centrifugal blower . Unless it is a short runner but I will lose so much torque
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From: Norn Iron
My IC procharger race unit
I will wait until I find a deal locally for upgrading the heads
What intake monifold do you recommend?
According to my noob knowledge there is no gains in the intake monifold using centrifugal blower . Unless it is a short runner but I will lose so much torque
I will wait until I find a deal locally for upgrading the heads
What intake monifold do you recommend?
According to my noob knowledge there is no gains in the intake monifold using centrifugal blower . Unless it is a short runner but I will lose so much torque
Although some will cry it cant handle boost...the reality is in most cases it does perfectly fine, and the FAST intakes do seem among the best performers.
For heads, a good set of as cast aftermarkets would be sensible value. Or I guess some well ported factory heads would be ok. Probably no real need to go for fully CNC'd aftermarket heads unless you were to get a cracking deal on them.
That said...if going for heads, you could move to square port heads and use a factory LS3 intake, as it's excellent which would make for a cheaper intake vs the likes of FAST, and the square ports do make a little more power up top too.
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From: Norn Iron
These seem pretty good and as it says "heads"...I presume it's for a pair ? Although watch the chambers to ensure you dont end up with a CR higher than desired. TBH, seems unlikely that's for two heads though...their advert should be clear.
https://www.texas-speed.com/p-7761-p...ral-heads.aspx
AFR claimed last year at SEMA they had a new range of as cast units....havent heard or seen anything more though.
TFS etc obviously have stuff too. I'm sure most are similarly priced.
and certainly this one was interesting about the IC. Would like to see him test more coolers of different brands and designs.
https://www.texas-speed.com/p-7761-p...ral-heads.aspx
AFR claimed last year at SEMA they had a new range of as cast units....havent heard or seen anything more though.
TFS etc obviously have stuff too. I'm sure most are similarly priced.
and certainly this one was interesting about the IC. Would like to see him test more coolers of different brands and designs.
Thread Starter
Teching In
Joined: Apr 2020
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There is absolutely no truth in that. Any gains seen n/a, will be bettered on boost.
Although some will cry it cant handle boost...the reality is in most cases it does perfectly fine, and the FAST intakes do seem among the best performers.
For heads, a good set of as cast aftermarkets would be sensible value. Or I guess some well ported factory heads would be ok. Probably no real need to go for fully CNC'd aftermarket heads unless you were to get a cracking deal on them.
That said...if going for heads, you could move to square port heads and use a factory LS3 intake, as it's excellent which would make for a cheaper intake vs the likes of FAST, and the square ports do make a little more power up top too.
Although some will cry it cant handle boost...the reality is in most cases it does perfectly fine, and the FAST intakes do seem among the best performers.
For heads, a good set of as cast aftermarkets would be sensible value. Or I guess some well ported factory heads would be ok. Probably no real need to go for fully CNC'd aftermarket heads unless you were to get a cracking deal on them.
That said...if going for heads, you could move to square port heads and use a factory LS3 intake, as it's excellent which would make for a cheaper intake vs the likes of FAST, and the square ports do make a little more power up top too.
I can buy ls3 heads and FAST intake locally so that is good
hopefully more power @ less boost
but after that I think I will turn up the boost anyway
Thread Starter
Teching In
Joined: Apr 2020
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These seem pretty good and as it says "heads"...I presume it's for a pair ? Although watch the chambers to ensure you dont end up with a CR higher than desired. TBH, seems unlikely that's for two heads though...their advert should be clear.
https://www.texas-speed.com/p-7761-p...ral-heads.aspx
AFR claimed last year at SEMA they had a new range of as cast units....havent heard or seen anything more though.
TFS etc obviously have stuff too. I'm sure most are similarly priced.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zILMP1BR9A8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eSoTVmPni_s&
and certainly this one was interesting about the IC. Would like to see him test more coolers of different brands and designs.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7R2I6SP74k
https://www.texas-speed.com/p-7761-p...ral-heads.aspx
AFR claimed last year at SEMA they had a new range of as cast units....havent heard or seen anything more though.
TFS etc obviously have stuff too. I'm sure most are similarly priced.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zILMP1BR9A8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eSoTVmPni_s&
and certainly this one was interesting about the IC. Would like to see him test more coolers of different brands and designs.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7R2I6SP74k
Definitely subscribed