Direct methanol injection through blending at the rail?
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Joined: Nov 2003
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From: Norn Iron
Yea, it could be fairly simple. And would go a low way to helping distribution in most EFI style intakes....if it is genuinely a problem.
Would still love RH or EM do a proper test with 8 lambdas and injecting a good proportion of methanol in various locations to see how different intakes respond, and different pre TB and intake setups do distribute.
I'd actually subscribe again to EM to see it. I gave it up as a lot of their tests were boring old ***** testing $50 mufflers for like 10hp that surely nobody would give a **** about.
Would still love RH or EM do a proper test with 8 lambdas and injecting a good proportion of methanol in various locations to see how different intakes respond, and different pre TB and intake setups do distribute.
I'd actually subscribe again to EM to see it. I gave it up as a lot of their tests were boring old ***** testing $50 mufflers for like 10hp that surely nobody would give a **** about.
Launching!
Joined: Sep 2008
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From: Dayton, OH
With respect to when you need the meth to be in the cylinder once demand is indicated this would result in a significant delay of the Meth entering the cylinders. It need to be there immediately.
If you push the meth in the fuel rail it will get to only the closest injector first, then to successive injectors. That takes time. Spraying meth into the intake gets it to each cylinder immediately and it is dispersed.
If you push the meth in the fuel rail it will get to only the closest injector first, then to successive injectors. That takes time. Spraying meth into the intake gets it to each cylinder immediately and it is dispersed.
TECH Regular
Joined: Nov 2018
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What about the issue of having fuel rails full of water/meth after you let off the throttle? You'll still have two rails full of mixture to burn off and when you aren't in boost and drinking fuel it takes longer than most would think to empty the rails with normal driving.
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From: Norn Iron
And both of the above are why I said you need minimal volume in the rails to nozzles from any check valves.
Aquamist do offer check valve nozzles, although they told me even they are not 100% guaranteed to prevent movement under heavy vacuum. But for most part and if a solenoid was used too, it should almost eliminate any lag time.
Only issue is the nozzles start to get quite large, and their check valve nozzles don't really lend themselves to rail mounting
Although if you use line pressure/flow as parameters for any fuel/spark adjustments, any effects of any delay would be minimised and certainly safe.
Even waiting for a typical pump to ramp up to speed is very slow in real terms, but as most start injecting fairly early, it's not an issue.
Aquamist do offer check valve nozzles, although they told me even they are not 100% guaranteed to prevent movement under heavy vacuum. But for most part and if a solenoid was used too, it should almost eliminate any lag time.
Only issue is the nozzles start to get quite large, and their check valve nozzles don't really lend themselves to rail mounting
Although if you use line pressure/flow as parameters for any fuel/spark adjustments, any effects of any delay would be minimised and certainly safe.
Even waiting for a typical pump to ramp up to speed is very slow in real terms, but as most start injecting fairly early, it's not an issue.
Last edited by stevieturbo; Nov 21, 2020 at 05:39 AM.
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What about a small spacer plate between the intake and the head with a small motorcycle sized injector that is fed with methanol / water meth mix? Then it could’ve mapped and effectively be a secondary fuel system.
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From: Norn Iron
Basically a solenoid ( or you could do a single injector ) so you can pulse to meter flow, and in those cases you just run the pump at 100% when needed, rather than trying to PWM the pump.
But in general, these systems are supposed to be relatively simple If you get to the stage of port injection with 1 "nozzle or injector" per cylinder and fully mappable.
Well it isn't really methanol injection anymore, it's a proper dual fuel system and should really be done properly, with proper pumps etc.
https://splitsec.com/product/aic1-a4...tor-controller
it seems like for budget someone could get an Arduino (maybe integrate with Raspberry Pi?) to pulse a pair of injectors in a charge pipe config, at least in a narrow rpm band and under WOT circumstances but I’m not sure of the exact limitations on those so far as milliseconds timing and memory. I would imagine integrated with a Pi you could do 8 injectors?
Last edited by TT427; Nov 22, 2020 at 11:09 AM.
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Verdad Gallardo yes, but as said this instance is not even known to be needed. Ffs guys running 10-11:1 one and 40-50 lbs on e85 not evening hitting knock. Injector size would probably be an issue too, trying to mix at the rail and using what for a tune? Meth and Eth are not the same stoich. I was merely offering some cheap ideas to dump meth and have some form of secondary control over it for WOT.
TECH Fanatic
Joined: Dec 2019
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would be interesting to see this implemented with something center of the intake and 1 injector to each pair of ports.
https://splitsec.com/product/aic1-a4...tor-controller
it seems like for budget someone could get an Arduino (maybe integrate with Raspberry Pi?) to pulse a pair of injectors in a charge pipe config, at least in a narrow rpm band and under WOT circumstances but I’m not sure of the exact limitations on those so far as milliseconds timing and memory. I would imagine integrated with a Pi you could do 8 injectors?
https://splitsec.com/product/aic1-a4...tor-controller
it seems like for budget someone could get an Arduino (maybe integrate with Raspberry Pi?) to pulse a pair of injectors in a charge pipe config, at least in a narrow rpm band and under WOT circumstances but I’m not sure of the exact limitations on those so far as milliseconds timing and memory. I would imagine integrated with a Pi you could do 8 injectors?
Arduino not needed, most aftermarket ECUs have additional injector drivers. My MS3Pro has several. You can use it as a pulsed output with a custom table and set it up however you want.
I'm pretty sure that Happel did dual injectors in his intake piping a couple of years ago too.
P.S., pulsing injectors with arduino sucks lol.
A similar system was made for the turbo Buicks. Called the 7th Inj.
This is extremely common and done pretty often.
Arduino not needed, most aftermarket ECUs have additional injector drivers. My MS3Pro has several. You can use it as a pulsed output with a custom table and set it up however you want.
I'm pretty sure that Happel did dual injectors in his intake piping a couple of years ago too.
P.S., pulsing injectors with arduino sucks lol.
Arduino not needed, most aftermarket ECUs have additional injector drivers. My MS3Pro has several. You can use it as a pulsed output with a custom table and set it up however you want.
I'm pretty sure that Happel did dual injectors in his intake piping a couple of years ago too.
P.S., pulsing injectors with arduino sucks lol.
Thread Starter
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 8,486
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From: Wichita, KS
yes, but as said this instance is not even known to be needed. Ffs guys running 10-11:1 one and 40-50 lbs on e85 not evening hitting knock. Injector size would probably be an issue too, trying to mix at the rail and using what for a tune? Meth and Eth are not the same stoich. I was merely offering some cheap ideas to dump meth and have some form of secondary control over it for WOT.
Something like this.... With some form on injector/control. Would work great IMO. For a budget setup, Maybe a DIY blow through CARB on E85 with this plate under it providing Methanol enrichment/octane/cooling.
