I'm wondering the same thing. Looking at the FMIC kit for my D1SC, seems it's a hair over 2k for the piping, intercooler and big red race valve. Not great, not terrible.

However if you can shave off a fair bit of the price for roughly comparable performance utilizing a Treadstone intercooler vs the Procharger, I'm all ears. At this rate, I'm thinking I may just say **** it and get the Procharger setup and be done with it, but I'm also in no huge rush and can take the time to plan this out accordingly.

Can you elaborate more on your reasoning?

​​​​​How do you feel the Garrett cores stack up vs Procharger's 1300hp rated intercooler? Have you seen any data comparing Procharger FMIC temps to other brands?

 

A while back i got my *** flamed for posting exactly what I still say. Heat exchange is a well understood concept. The main difference between any intercooler is labor cost. buy the biggest heat exchanger you can find that fits your space and budget, then roll with it.

 

Now you're talking about blowers with fixed pulleys and setups that don't compensate like a wastegate can. Now you're talking about 40% discounts on a better FMIC? You're cherry picking the scenarios and moving the goal posts. Of course most people would buy a better FMIC if they were the same price just like most would buy a name brand turbo if they were the same price. Except that most of the year they're not and it's typically 2x the price. For $200 people can buy a pump and hotwire kit, or injectors. Should they wait to buy a pump and hotwire kit and not get the car running because they need a "proper" FMIC? Show me a turbo setup on pump gas ONLY that benefited from no intercooler over a "crap" ebay cooler and I'll show you a setup that was either poorly designed or had other problems.

 

I smell urine in here, does anyone else smell it?

 

I don't know what ProCharger uses for a core. So I really couldn't say.


Lol, I'm not cherry picking anything. The blower example is directly related and helps easily explain why a crap IC can hurt more than help in SOME cases. It removes the WG from the picture illustrates the point more clearly. A WG doesn't' "fix" the problem. It only makes it less noticeable with a turbo setup. The turbo is working harder with less response to do maintain "X" manifold pressure. It's the same as dropping the pulley size on the blower to get the desired manifold pressure, it will do the same thing the WG is doing.

Yes, of course I'm talking about 40% discounts as the OP is asking what IC he should buy with a limited budget. IMO. Why wouldn't I tell him he can get better IC's at 40% off right now?! You can get the 1245 1000HP IC for $260! Why the hell would you buy a crap Ebay IC for $150 when you can get one that performs much better for $260? $260 is a drop in the bucket and a GREAT price on that IC. Its literally the best price on a decent performing IC out there. Which is what the OP is asking about. You're not making any sense. It's like you're trying to justify the fact that you run an ebay IC and it works. That's not being debated. Lots of things work. If you swapped out to the $260 IC you'd pick up power and improve response for very little cost difference.

The debate is a poor IC VS mid level decent IC. Not a pump gas car with no IC VS poor IC. The point is the pressure drop across the ebay cores can be garbage. I've literally seen 8 psi drop across the $130 core (and heard of more) which IMO is total junk. Not to mention it didn't cool as well. Measure yours, let us know what you find. Until you have experience swapping the ebay core out with a TS unit and can give some data points... everything is just opinion. I've been there... so have many others. Ask then their opinion after making the swap. I've yet to talk to someone who doesn't think it was worthwhile.

 

​​​​​​If you aren't debating whether or not a "junk" ebay core works and you're NOT arguing about a core vs. no CORE than why bring up the SBE record car that went faster without an FMIC? Who care if the turbo had to work harder to account for the increased pressure drop of a cheaper FMIC? On anything but max effort, that increase in pressure is likely putting you in a better part of the compressor map anyways making it more efficient. Most don't care if the turbo has to run 16 psi or 19 psi to get 15 psi at the motor. Is a better FMIC more efficient and will it make more power? DUH. I'm not arguing that just like you're supposedly not arguing that no FMIC is better than a cheap FMIC. Perhaps you and I are just making different points that are not actually in opposition.

 

My examples weren't debate... they are fact. It has been proven removing the cheap 31x12x3 IC made more power in SOME cases. I listed a couple of those cases. I also listed cases where that IC was removed and replaced with a TS unit. Every person I'm aware of that's done it was VERY surprised by the difference it made.

Who cares if their turbo setup works worth a damn? Really? How about anyone with a clue? Why in the world do you want your turbo making 28lbs (or more) to get 20 in the manifold? Then cooling the charge poorly to boot? When for what.. another $110? you can get an IC that will actually be efficient? Not to mention improve the response at ton, get on the TB/2-step sooner etc.

A lot of builders stress out about a FMIC. They go through a lot of trouble to fit them and block their radiators, cut up their cars. Then the install a unit that works poorly at best, and in SOME cases can do more harm than good because thats what they heard worked. When for a a little more money you can put something decent in the car that performs MUCH better. Again... not a theory, a fact.

I'm clearly not "well off" in anyway. I build my stuff about as shoestring as it gets budget wise... Even I'd spend the extra $100-200 to put a decent IC in my car. And I'd suggest any new builder do the same. Its the purpose of this forum. Feel free to disagree, I'm in no way offended by someone disagreeing with me. I'm just stating my opinion and the facts that lead me to that opinion.

 

You are very clearly talking about specific cases and people who take racing very seriously as most do not "stress" about their FMIC. I have no problem with you disagreeing and I still think you and I are talking about different use cases, but I would appreciate it if you bothered to at least accurately quote me. I NEVER said that people don't care if their turbo setup works worth a damn. I said the average joe doesn't care if their turbo has to make an extra couple of PSI to account for the pressure drop of the cheaper FMIC. No more no less. Now go back to your build thread with some progress!

 

I always wonder why people say that as typically cars are in boost the longest at the track. Unless people are just making 180MPH rips on the street everyday? I’ve never been able to get my IAT’s high enough to matter on the street even with back to back to back 60-130 pulls.

 

I've always wondered why people don't understand that having a car sitting turned off in the staging lane until its time for a burn out and an immediate pass is not the same as sitting in stop and go traffic with the AC on for a half hour and then making a pull up an on ramp You know, REAL street car activities.

 

I’ve never been able to have my car off in a staging lane, unless its for a long cleanup. I’ve had my car idling forever and never seen IAT’s go bananas, they might get to 100-110 max. I drive my car on the street basically every day it doesn't rain and my IAT’s on the street are cooler than at the track.

I dont get what AC has to do with IAT’s if your turbo has a fresh air feed as my IAT’s weren't any higher when I had AC. Guess it helps I have an electric water pump and my engine bay isnt churning 220* coolant temps like most people. I have to beat on my car to even get it over 160*.

I think people just over think IAT like they do so many other things.

 

LOL whatever you say.

 

I just dont see many max effort street cars where a few degrees of IAT either way will matter at all. But I know everyone needs gobs of scene point useless power on the street, its so useful spinning everywhere.

I’ve seen guys driving around LSA setups with 200+ IAT’s that the intercooler pump died on and they didnt even notice, still did burnouts from stoplights and moved a heavy car along just fine.

 

Exactly none of my posts had anything to do with max effort. My posts have been everything but max effort. That's the entire point of why I'm saying that most people can't just rip off their FMIC and go faster. Most people don't run E85 and they live in a world where packaging and cooling is a major concern. If you can forget to turn on your A2W pump and everything is fine or rip off your intercooler and everything is fine, more power to you, but its far and away the exception and not what the average joe experiences due to chassis and build limitations.

 

Thats my point, no street car is max effort everything is a compromise. So it should be tuned to be run in all conditions as its not a race car tuned on ragged edge. A few hp either way isnt gonna make anyways day merging on the highway.

I dont even run E85, its not needed on your average street setup. I run E50 at best since I get better MPG, street car after all.

As far as packing goes doesn't get any easier than routing cold side without an intercooler.

 

I agree that tunes should compensate for failures....but you and I have been around long enough to know how most tooners operate. As far as E....E50, E85, E98.6......its all got WAY more cushion for detonation than straight 93. Most don't have access to ANY Ethanol. Because of this, they need to run an intercooler, which makes packaging more difficult. Hell, getting an FMIC and cold side under the hood of an Fbody is EASY....it's getting the hot side and turbo there that's the problem.

 

Ohh I know seen some well known tuners blowup multiple street cars and burn the plugs out of many more cars recently. Almost seems like its a contest to see who can run more timing the leanest. I also saw one guy email the same tune to two people with entirely different setups.

I dont know who doesnt have access to any ethanol, west coast and Maine I guess. Ive been able to find it easily all over the east coast, south and mid west.

But I can get pretty much same results with 93 and meth. I ran too small a turbo over ten years ago with no intercooler. Sometimes just ran washer fluid if thats all that was available. Not optimal by any means but was enough to walk most anything I ran up on during the commute.

I’m not saying running no IC is a perfect setup by any means, especially on setups that have to be run well outside their efficiency zone. But it seems to work well enough especially in street cars with meager power levels. Most people aren’t going to notice a difference between 712 and 737 horsepower cruising to cars and coffee spinning their rain tread street tires.

 

I will say that driving in the rain is probably not my smartest move. I've always driven my stuff rain or shine, drag radials or real street tires, turbo or blower, stick it auto. No issues thankfully.

 

I wont drive it anywhere if its auto