So I am working on tuning a 6.0 Procharger setup with 15# of boost. Car is on Term X. This setup does not have a intercooler, so the owner stuck a Alky system on it. I've never used their system. Obviously, with the car not being intercooled, I need to get the spray working, so I can start tuning the car up top. I roughed in the tune just based on other cars I have tuned. I sent Alky a email asking some questions, got no response. Everything on their website says ask your tuner.
I am guessing I need to turn it down pretty low, and just watch IAT temps? On a intercooled setup, I would tune it first, then bring in the meth, but can't on this. Anyone who has tuned a non intercooled boosted setup, I'd love to hear some suggestions. Currently the tune is garbage, the meth is spraying so much, it's bogging down the car. Guy paid pretty good $ for that, I'm thinking WTF. BTW, the tune in the car had the learn add 20%. Good thing that was left on.

 

What your saying doesn't make much sense to me. IF its bogging down the car with the meth on its because its too rich. Perhaps the 20% fuel that you auto tuned in shouldn't have been added. Maybe it was tuned 20% lean and when the meth came on it then added the needed 20% fueling to run correctly. You want it to be rich, then pull fuel from your base map until the correct AFR is met. Then setup a sprak cut safety based on AFR in case the meth doesn't turn on for some reason. That way you won't accidently lean out and damage the motor.

What does the AFR look like when the spray is on? What mixture of methanol do you run? How many nozzles? What sized nozzles? What pump etc.... Need lots more information. Take a pic of the controller as well. i'm not sure what an "alky" system is. Do you mean Alky Control? If so Julio is one of the best on customer service. I'm really surprised if he hasn't responded. You might call them.

 

Watch the latest episode of Engine Masters on spraying water/methanol vs 100% methanol. Those guys, along with lots of us over the years have figured out that the 50/50 crap sucks unless you are spraying a super tiny amount, the water needs to be only sprayed a tiny amount, spraying 100% methanol works better, doesn't kill power, cools just as well or better than water. Methanol isn't as picky about being super rich as gasoline so you can actually go overly rich if your car won't do closed loop correction and it doesn't hurt power. 10.5:1 afr on gasoline only and you're starting to kill power, 10.0:1 on gasoline you are definitely killing power. BUT if you tuned to 11:1 on gasoline then sprayed a ton of 100% methanol on top of that and you show 10:1 afr, it doesn't kill power.

Water sucks unless you spray a tiny tiny tiny amount then it works ok. If its bogging then either you should lay off the water or you've got some big big tune issues.

 

I might not have stated it boldly enough, water sucks. It works like the ww2 fighters if you spray .00001% of your fuel amount, otherwise bog city. 100% methanol is the only way to go. Spraying water into an engine is about as productive as wearing a sandpaper condom.

 

Without water, cancer and aids wouldn't exist, think about it. Water is the main ingredient in both.

 

Be aware and download the install instructions for the kit if you haven't already done so. Understand the instructions completely and if you do not then don't use the system until you make sure it is installed correctly and works correctly. Because I didn't understand the system and because my GM tech who did the install didn't under how it worked either I hydrolocked the engine. It took out everything except the heads and lifters. A $12000 dollar mistake.

What I discovered is that my kit did NOT include a check valve to keep the mix from running into the charge pipe or siphoning into the charge pipe. When you say the engine bogs down or when you push the test button and the engine dies, then what might happen to the fluid in the charge pipe or intake if there is no check valve in the methanol line to stop the fluid in the line from the pump to the nozzle to drain into the charge pipe or sucked into the intake as the engine dies? If there is enough left when the engine dies - kaboom when you refire the engine.

Another issue not explained in the instructions is what happens each time you turn key on and then key off without firing the engine. Which you might do repeatedly when tuning a car on the dyno or for whatever reason. If the pump activates to charge the line what happens to the fluid in the line if there is no check valve to stop the methanol from running into the charge pipe? What happens when you push the test button to charge the line as explained in the instructions, the engine boggs and dies. What happens if there is no check valve. What might happen when you restart the car and there is an accumulation of methanol mix in the intake?

Imagine turning on the water hose outside your house. The hose fills with water under pressure. Then you turn off the hose. This leaves water in the hose with some of the water running out of the hose but not all of it.

So beware and make sure you know the answers to the above.

Another thing to pay attention to is the level of the fluid in the tank. If it keeps dropping and the system isn't activating where is it going? Mine seemed to disappear when the car was parked. It went kaboom when I started the car.

 

I have the AEM kit, the plastic tank had some particles from them drilling the holes in it, and rough areas around the holes I cleaned up-I decided to place a filter in line, and since the tank is a little higher, I added a solenoid so it wouldn't run into the engine, although the nozzle has a ck valve. I am using the boost juice, still playing with the controls, going on a dyno next week, but they said it will richen up when spraying. I tried spraying pre turbo, so I could see what the MAT was reading, but moved it back after the turbo, prob less chance of the meth evap. Not sure where you actually hit that magic spot where its doing what you want. Just hoping to read the plugs.

 

Adam thanks for the response. Sorry I wasn't very clear. So far, I haven't touched this car. It is a Alky Control system, has 1 nozzle. I'm not positive what kit it actually is. The owner told me it's 100% meth is all he "knew". He didn't even realize it had a actual nozzle.
I Do appreciate reminding me to put a safety in just in case the meth doesn't spray.
When I pulled the tune out of the Term x, the learn showed it was adding a little over 20% fuel up top, but the owner says the car bogs when it sprays, again all owner relayed info, so take that for what it's worth.
I haven't heard anything back from Alky control still. At this point, I figured the track is closed, I'm going to get my ducks right before I tune on this. Never tuned a non intercooled meth setup.
I definitely appreciate everyone posting up. I want to go over his meth system and understand it. I asked Alky Control if I could pwm their system with the Holley so it would just control it, but again no response. I may call them.
It seems to me it would be much easier to tune, if I had everything under one system, but I guess it's not that big of a deal. Just make me feel a little bit like raping a MAF to get the fuel right.

 

I appreciate your feedback. The base tune I have built to load, is set to a 10.5:1 AFR to start on gasoline, and my plan is to start spraying the meth at around 3# and working the tune from there. The owner has a jug of full meth he said that he sprays, so I guess I'll see. I'll believe all of it when I see it and experience it, some owners don't seem to know what they have.

 

I definitely plan on reading their instructions, and verifying his system is all there and installed correctly. I definitely planned on making sure it had a check valve, held pressure, and I was going to pull the nozzle and check the spray before I even start this car. Thank you sir!

 

I'll check out that engine masters!

 

My kit came with a 2 bar map sensor. Near as I can remember the AlkyControl kit ramps up based on the signal from the supplied map sensor with the alky kit. The gain curve is explained in the instructions.

So you might want to check if you have one, whether it's 2 bar or 3 and if it is connected or has dry rot on the vacuum line ends. You don't want to be running the pump as either on or off. That might explain the rich condition. The pump ramps up based on boost along with the Gain ramp dial.

The instructions were not the best with my kit. It is extremely difficult to write good instructions. Writers make too many assumptions and avoid details clear to the writer and not so much with the consumer.

Since I switched from MAF to SD and to a 2 bar sensor at the same time the kit was installed, the tuner replaced the stock 1 bar sensor 2 bar sensor on the intake and installed the Alky sensor remotely connected via a vacuum line.

Just speculation, but since you didn't buy the kit you won't get support.

 

I'm no tuner by any means at all. But I used the terminator x progressive nitrous controller to run my cheap second hand snow water meth kit. My car was much happier and easier to dial in a constant iat through entire pass..

 

WTF are you talking about?

 

LOL He is just hammering home his disdain for water as opposed to methanol for injection. BTW, this is one of my all time favorite thread titles.

 

Does spraying meth cause rust or other I’ll effects? What about on a PD blower application?

 

Does anyone have a copy of, or link to the instructions for the Alky Control stuff? I can't find it anywhere. I've read some threads on how the system works, but would really like to read their printed words.

 

You have a PM.

 

Really depends what you are after. Are you wanting a performance increase form AUX injection? Or are you wanting detonation suppression so that you can turn boost up? Both would be the typical answer... but water will do a better job of anti knock and pulling heat form the CC (to a point) And meth will do better at charge cooling at adding octane.

While I agree with the idea of big volume 100% meth having more benefits... The benefits are not the same or better than water. Literally nothing will cool a chamber as well as water at like volumes. Water is simply able to pull more heat. Meth evaporates more quickly and is capable of cooling the air charge to lower temps. The Engine Masters and like tests are all bogus! They use wetted thermocouples and thermistors for data points. Which produce complete garbage data. You need a MAF to calculate air flow differences entering the engine and EGT's to help access exhaust and CC temp deltas.

Water has benefits in the chamber meth can't compete with. My "solution" Would be to use either 2 kits... or mix say 2-3% water(depending on total volume sprayed) in with your meth. Using the two together will produce the best results. Finding the optimum mixture is where the work comes in.

100% meth also has draw backs when sprayed in large enough volumes to be super effective. They produce combustible A/F mixtures in your charge pipe/intake that can ignite in the event of a back fire. None of the kits typically used (as well as the kit engine masters used) Sprays enough volume to truly make 100% meth worthwhile IMO. Typical kits spray baby volumes. (less than 10% total fueling replaced by meth). All this has been calculated on calibrated dynos and MAF's by Kevin Jewer. He sprayed 50% of his total fueling at 1000HP though the turbo without an IC. Managed to calculate the change in charge temps VIA math and MAF flow VS engine Dyno power delta's with/without the aux injection active. Was able to cool 1000 CHP at 34lbs down to about 150* with 500HP worth of meth injection preturbo. After this point (which happens to be the boiling point) spraying more meth did very little to charge temps. In doing this he was able to calculate the amount of meth needed to cool 1000HP worth of flow. @ 100lbs of airflow 500cc (8gph) of meth will drop the charge temps only 15*. He also confirmed that if you halve the airflow (500 CHP) that same 8gph will drop 30* off the charge temps.

We can see with this data that the typical 15-30gph kits do VERY little to charge temps as a whole. And that the BS reported drops in charge temp are a direct result of wetted temp probes. With all these data points using a 50/50 mixture at the typical 7-10gph is great at reducing knock and is a very brainless/easy and cheap installation with zero worry of explosions in the charge pipe. It clearly reduces CC temps by a simple plug reading with the kit on VS off. While I saw zero performance increase in back to back runs... it def cooled the CC.

While to get "the most" out of your 100% meth kit, you have to risk explosive charges in your pipes and you need a pump and kit capable of spraying serious volume. Which none of the typical aftermarket kits do. So its all a toss up IMO. go big or go home with the 100% meth... or settle for typical no brainer kits and be happy with a cooler CC and knock suppression.

 

According to the heat of vaporization tables I have seen in the past it is over twice as much heat that water absorbs.