Cooling effects of E85 vs non-E 100-116 octane
What I wonder about though are the class cars that run a/w that still run C16 and Q16. If E98 was better and also cheaper they'd switch, but they haven't. I'll ask my buddy Manna about it The racers might be stuck in a routine I dunno.
A lot of people are still anti ethanol they think it is the devil and eats their engines internals. Also, they are in a routine and have carbs that may not play nice with ethanol. Combine those two things and not wanting to change their fuel system to run ethanol or methanol so they stick with what they've always used.
At least this is what I see with most of the older generation at the local track especially long-time bracket racers.
At least this is what I see with most of the older generation at the local track especially long-time bracket racers.
I'm guessing it's too taxing on their fuel system and possibly creates higher backpressure at higher revs due to all the extra exhaust volume (if turbocharged).
Interested to hear what they say.
J Capizzi tunes, and he's tuning all sorts of fuels, he'd have opinions on this too.
I know things here and there about fuels, but honestly you should just reach out to guys like Jason Rueckert at VP Fuels and folks like that to get the info from them.
I know things here and there about fuels, but honestly you should just reach out to guys like Jason Rueckert at VP Fuels and folks like that to get the info from them.
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Verdad Gallardo If we're talking cooling effects, then race gas would have little to none since its alcohol content is far less than E85 I would assume.
Now you'd still have detonation resistance with race gas but your IAT's would probably get high enough to cause concern.
I'd rather have lower IAT temps than not but that's just me.
Now you'd still have detonation resistance with race gas but your IAT's would probably get high enough to cause concern.
I'd rather have lower IAT temps than not but that's just me.
@foxsl A 10 minute convo with Jason "Pooch" Ruerkert or one of his team members would help you a lot in your quest for knowledge:
https://vpracingfuels.com/contact-us/#general-inquiries
https://vpracingfuels.com/contact-us/#general-inquiries
I reached out to Jason @ VP Fuels and he was kinda busy.
I reached out to Jon Capizzi and he shared his experience.
I reached out to Jon Capizzi and he shared his experience.
- E85, E90, Ignite Red are his preferred. Ethanol has a wider tuning window. He referred to Ignite as awesome.
- Not a big fan of E98, harder to light off and harder to nail the cold idle.
- C16, has tuned a number of combos like that. Issue is as a fuel it's rough on O2 sensors and the tuning has to be pretty close. "Adding 5% fuel can sometimes cost you over 100hp." His view is that C16 or Q16 can make sense for high compression combos, engine combos with tight quench or tricky combos."
I reached out to Jason @ VP Fuels and he was kinda busy.
I reached out to Jon Capizzi and he shared his experience.
I reached out to Jon Capizzi and he shared his experience.
- E85, E90, Ignite Red are his preferred. Ethanol has a wider tuning window. He referred to Ignite as awesome.
- Not a big fan of E98, harder to light off and harder to nail the cold idle.
- C16, has tuned a number of combos like that. Issue is as a fuel it's rough on O2 sensors and the tuning has to be pretty close. "Adding 5% fuel can sometimes cost you over 100hp." His view is that C16 or Q16 can make sense for high compression combos, engine combos with tight quench or tricky combos."
I'll have to go over John's audio clip again but I think you summed it up well.
To conclude my original question, I now fully see the safety in E85 from the cooling aspect, that is what I will go with for sustained runs (1/4 mile stretches) on SBE setups. I'm sure others will have this dilemma and benefit from John's info.
I tune smaller time setups but can appreciate the detonation resistance 40+ % ethanol content offers, despite not using it yet. I will be a lot more comfortable stepping outside of my previous sub 7xx rwhp tuning level now that I am aware of what is needed to play nicely with SBEs.
It's an interesting question and honestly I learned a bunch too. Some of those other links I sent ya showed folks getting near the same power on E85 vs C16 and I didn't expect that. Totally reframes things for me.
last year i was given a drum of 260GT and bought a drum of E98 to mix it down to E80 or so (holley take the wheel!) and it worked well.
one thing i didnt consider was that oxygenated race gas already has 9-13% alky in it. kept getting lower readings on my content sensor than i anticipated. derp.
one thing i didnt consider was that oxygenated race gas already has 9-13% alky in it. kept getting lower readings on my content sensor than i anticipated. derp.
Alcohol based fuels will almost always make more power at the same boost level vs race gas because it's so oxygen rich compared to gas, even the oxygenated high end race fuels can't compete with that. Alcohol based fuels burn quickly and efficiently which means keep your timing in check. I like OneR and Ignite on cars that you are really pushing hard, otherwise pump E50-E85 works great. Leaded high octane race fuels burn slower than alcohol and usually need more timing as well, and they also have a lower pressure spike or a "gentler push" on the piston which can be nicer on bottom ends.
Alcohol based fuels will almost always make more power at the same boost level vs race gas because it's so oxygen rich compared to gas, even the oxygenated high end race fuels can't compete with that. Alcohol based fuels burn quickly and efficiently which means keep your timing in check. I like OneR and Ignite on cars that you are really pushing hard, otherwise pump E50-E85 works great. Leaded high octane race fuels burn slower than alcohol and usually need more timing as well, and they also have a lower pressure spike or a "gentler push" on the piston which can be nicer on bottom ends.
There are several local guys I know who have pump gas cars (like me) and will run C16 fuel at the track/dyno and add a bit more boost but not adjust timing.
Is this a mistake and it sounds like it leaves a lot of power on the table especially when swapping tunes is so easy, this is my current plan btw is to have a two fuel specific tunes.
I guess it'd be nice to know where the tipping point is when going from a leaded race fuel to a E-type fuel is beneficial.
Great thread guys.
So, in relation to leaded race fuels like C16, you mention those kinds of fuels need more timing so would it make sense to have a dedicated C16 tune as opposed to having a pump gas compatible tune and only adding boost when running C16?
There are several local guys I know who have pump gas cars (like me) and will run C16 fuel at the track/dyno and add a bit more boost but not adjust timing.
Is this a mistake and it sounds like it leaves a lot of power on the table especially when swapping tunes is so easy, this is my current plan btw is to have a two fuel specific tunes.
I guess it'd be nice to know where the tipping point is when going from a leaded race fuel to a E-type fuel is beneficial.
Great thread guys.
There are several local guys I know who have pump gas cars (like me) and will run C16 fuel at the track/dyno and add a bit more boost but not adjust timing.
Is this a mistake and it sounds like it leaves a lot of power on the table especially when swapping tunes is so easy, this is my current plan btw is to have a two fuel specific tunes.
I guess it'd be nice to know where the tipping point is when going from a leaded race fuel to a E-type fuel is beneficial.
Great thread guys.
...And Jon Capizzi was saying that if a tune is on the rich side it would lose power as much as a phat C16 tune would.
One of my buddies runs C16 at the track and 93 for cruising but it's a pain to drain it.
A local buddy has a SBF YSI setup and he's only tuned for C16... He's kicking around E85 (and maybe flex) or doing a 93 tune / C16 switch since he can't cruise it. I showed him how much I drive around on pump E85 and how many pumps there are in our area.
One of my buddies runs C16 at the track and 93 for cruising but it's a pain to drain it.
A local buddy has a SBF YSI setup and he's only tuned for C16... He's kicking around E85 (and maybe flex) or doing a 93 tune / C16 switch since he can't cruise it. I showed him how much I drive around on pump E85 and how many pumps there are in our area.
C16 is more picky on being rich where as alcohol based fuels can run on the richer side of things and lose almost nothing. In other words on alcohol let it eat, on C16 don't run rich.
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