Cooling effects of E85 vs non-E 100-116 octane
Cooling effects of E85 vs non-E 100-116 octane We are all aware of the cooling effects of E40-E85 alcohol concentrated fuels.
Those benefits go far in a boosted application and many have set records on E85 on stock LS bottom ends.
When using a non-oxygenated and non-ethanol race fuel that has an octane anywhere between 100 and 116......can the engine be tuned just as aggressively as on E40-E85, or does the lack of alcohol cooling make a giant difference in how much timing you can go with before you hurt the piston (EVEN IF you don't hear/detect knock)?
If it matters, let's say at the 1000 rwhp level.
Those benefits go far in a boosted application and many have set records on E85 on stock LS bottom ends.
When using a non-oxygenated and non-ethanol race fuel that has an octane anywhere between 100 and 116......can the engine be tuned just as aggressively as on E40-E85, or does the lack of alcohol cooling make a giant difference in how much timing you can go with before you hurt the piston (EVEN IF you don't hear/detect knock)?
If it matters, let's say at the 1000 rwhp level.
Last edited by foxsl; Dec 10, 2022 at 06:48 PM.
Basically any of the popular race fuels that don't have alcohol, trying to see if that is the main ingredient in keeping parts more safe than without any E-content. I've heard of E85 being equivalent to 100 octane, some have said 120, some 112, so I am all over the place with my ranges as I can't confirm that detail. However it seems the E-fuels allow more forgiveness due to their alcohol amount rather than just the octane itself, so I'm here to learn.
This is also without any kind of water/meth injection.
This is also without any kind of water/meth injection.
Last edited by foxsl; Dec 10, 2022 at 07:42 PM.
Depending on the combo (intercooled, compression, race weight), you can easily make 1000rhwp with many of the race fuels out there like VP 110, C16, Q16.
You know that E85 is super popular because of price, $2.50-4.00 gallon is kinda nice vs $15-25 a gallon for the various race fuels.
You know that E85 is super popular because of price, $2.50-4.00 gallon is kinda nice vs $15-25 a gallon for the various race fuels.
Last edited by Pro Stock John; Dec 10, 2022 at 09:08 PM.
Depending on the combo (intercooled, compression, race weight), you can make 1000rhwp with many of the race fuels out there like VP 110, C16, Q16.
You know that E85 is super popular because of price, $2.50-4.00 gallon is kinda nice vs $15-25 a gallon for the various race fuels.
You know that E85 is super popular because of price, $2.50-4.00 gallon is kinda nice vs $15-25 a gallon for the various race fuels.
However if it helps, this will be a full 1/4 mile car so a lot more strain than just 1/8 mile.
-3350 lbs race weight
-intercooled
-9.6:1 CR
-no meth or water injection
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Verdad Gallardo I realize it seems obvious that the E40-E85 mix will reduce combustion/inlet temps, thus keep detonation at bay better than a fuel without cooling effects of alcohol.
However I'm trying to see if this translates to:
-Engine 1 at 1000 rwhp lasting through 2 years worth of 1/4 mile passes if tuned with E-fuels, and
-Engine 2 at 1000 rwhp lasting through only a few months of 1/4 mile passes on 114 race fuel
-all hypothetical but please assume similar boost and timing
Last edited by foxsl; Dec 10, 2022 at 09:53 PM.
They do mention how drastically E85 reduced the inlet temps, so in a way I have my answer there as in theory the hotter the air, the closer it is to supporting detonation than cooler air.
However I'm just looking for a real world confirmation if even with hot inlet temps, race gas will still ward off detonation (until a crazy level), and keep longevity in check. Or if the heat will lead to a meltdown in the combustion chamber from sustained runs like a 1/4 mile, versus the cooler burning E85.
I personally have seen a supercharged LSA camaro read 273*F iat temps (I think that was pegged for all the sensor can read). With a 103 octane mix, there was no detonation. While on 91 octane and much cooler 130*F iat temps, I couldn't even get to the same timing without knocking.
The 103 octane mix didn't contain any alcohol and wasn't oxygenated. Not sure on the longevity of that despite not detecting knock. Kind of a bad example but still something comparing short term longevity versus long term, again just speculating as the engine is still alive and well.
Last edited by foxsl; Dec 10, 2022 at 10:20 PM.
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1 anecdotal experience,,,
Ran a dwarf car with a 1300 air cooled GSXR engine, on any pure race gas the head temps would hit 400+ easily. (Not great for valve life... )
On straight methanol, the head temps stayed on the bottom pin till about 4 laps were done, almost impossible to heat the engine up, had to start running an oil heater between sessions just so it would pull once we rolled it on track. And this was after re-jetting for the methanol.
Ran a dwarf car with a 1300 air cooled GSXR engine, on any pure race gas the head temps would hit 400+ easily. (Not great for valve life... )
On straight methanol, the head temps stayed on the bottom pin till about 4 laps were done, almost impossible to heat the engine up, had to start running an oil heater between sessions just so it would pull once we rolled it on track. And this was after re-jetting for the methanol.
Although the article shows E85 112 octane making about 40 more horsepower than the 114 octane race gas on an engine dyno, a true longevity answer would be given by you guys on here that actually drag race your cars.
They do mention how drastically E85 reduced the inlet temps, so in a way I have my answer there as in theory the hotter the air, the closer it is to supporting detonation than cooler air.
However I'm just looking for a real world confirmation if even with hot inlet temps, race gas will still ward off detonation (until a crazy level), and keep longevity in check. Or if the heat will lead to a meltdown in the combustion chamber from sustained runs like a 1/4 mile, versus the cooler burning E85.
I personally have seen a supercharged LSA camaro read 273*F iat temps (I think that was pegged for all the sensor can read). With a 103 octane mix, there was no detonation. While on 91 octane and much cooler 130*F iat temps, I couldn't even get to the same timing without knocking.
The 103 octane mix didn't contain any alcohol and wasn't oxygenated. Not sure on the longevity of that despite not detecting knock. Kind of a bad example but still something comparing short term longevity versus long term, again just speculating as the engine is still alive and well.
They do mention how drastically E85 reduced the inlet temps, so in a way I have my answer there as in theory the hotter the air, the closer it is to supporting detonation than cooler air.
However I'm just looking for a real world confirmation if even with hot inlet temps, race gas will still ward off detonation (until a crazy level), and keep longevity in check. Or if the heat will lead to a meltdown in the combustion chamber from sustained runs like a 1/4 mile, versus the cooler burning E85.
I personally have seen a supercharged LSA camaro read 273*F iat temps (I think that was pegged for all the sensor can read). With a 103 octane mix, there was no detonation. While on 91 octane and much cooler 130*F iat temps, I couldn't even get to the same timing without knocking.
The 103 octane mix didn't contain any alcohol and wasn't oxygenated. Not sure on the longevity of that despite not detecting knock. Kind of a bad example but still something comparing short term longevity versus long term, again just speculating as the engine is still alive and well.
You'd have to dig into the use cases each fuel is designed for when researching race fuels. VP makes about a dozen different fuels (C16, Q16, C23, VP Import, MS 109 C85, VP 110 and more). Each has a different target customer.
And you have blends that combine ethanol with race gases, and I don't know much about them like Ignite Red and stuff like that.
And you have blends that combine ethanol with race gases, and I don't know much about them like Ignite Red and stuff like that.
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The other advantage to 100% Methanol is its always the same fuel. 99+ %, no gasoline is as stable and consistent.
Pump gas can be all over on additive packages even if you use the same source, the additives are sold on a industry commodity based on bid like corn..
The formula's can change every time the tanks are filled.
Branded race gas is better but still slides around a little due to supply cost of individual components just like pump gas. Except they try to keep the formula consistent for the season..
Mixing race and pump... If you're not a PHD Fuel chemist,, you really don't know what you'll be getting. I've had it proven to me by some fuel engineers I worked with for a season selling race fuel that some 114 race gas mixed with 92 will yield random octane as low as 82, the additive packages can be subtractive occasionally not additive.
Pump gas can be all over on additive packages even if you use the same source, the additives are sold on a industry commodity based on bid like corn..
The formula's can change every time the tanks are filled.
Branded race gas is better but still slides around a little due to supply cost of individual components just like pump gas. Except they try to keep the formula consistent for the season..
Mixing race and pump... If you're not a PHD Fuel chemist,, you really don't know what you'll be getting. I've had it proven to me by some fuel engineers I worked with for a season selling race fuel that some 114 race gas mixed with 92 will yield random octane as low as 82, the additive packages can be subtractive occasionally not additive.
For your answer look at all the successful high boost stock bottom end guys. They run e85 or methanol. Too many variables to have a scientifically proven answer as to which fuel will last more 1/4 mile passes at 1000 rwhp. Just look to what the successful people do and the proven dyno comparisons like the one in the link I provided.
I see now that the cooler methanol and e85 fuels, are what's needed to keep combustion temps safe-ish and keep these engines alive longer.
The other advantage to 100% Methanol is its always the same fuel. 99+ %, no gasoline is as stable and consistent.
Pump gas can be all over on additive packages even if you use the same source, the additives are sold on a industry commodity based on bid like corn..
The formula's can change every time the tanks are filled.
Branded race gas is better but still slides around a little due to supply cost of individual components just like pump gas. Except they try to keep the formula consistent for the season..
Mixing race and pump... If you're not a PHD Fuel chemist,, you really don't know what you'll be getting. I've had it proven to me by some fuel engineers I worked with for a season selling race fuel that some 114 race gas mixed with 92 will yield random octane as low as 82, the additive packages can be subtractive occasionally not additive.
Pump gas can be all over on additive packages even if you use the same source, the additives are sold on a industry commodity based on bid like corn..
The formula's can change every time the tanks are filled.
Branded race gas is better but still slides around a little due to supply cost of individual components just like pump gas. Except they try to keep the formula consistent for the season..
Mixing race and pump... If you're not a PHD Fuel chemist,, you really don't know what you'll be getting. I've had it proven to me by some fuel engineers I worked with for a season selling race fuel that some 114 race gas mixed with 92 will yield random octane as low as 82, the additive packages can be subtractive occasionally not additive.
You have to be somewhat specific because there are so many variables that can change how E85 cools the intake charge.
Invisible flames are only invisible when nothing else is burning, As soon as anything else is added to the mix you will see it. It's a much safer fuel when it comes to fire.
I will never run methanol in anything other than full time race cars, It's not worth the hassle of draining the fuel system or pickling the fuel system anytime you're not going to use the vehicle in a day or two. Methanol is very corrosive even when compared to E85, I let my truck sit for months with E85 and never have a problem.
I will never run methanol in anything other than full time race cars, It's not worth the hassle of draining the fuel system or pickling the fuel system anytime you're not going to use the vehicle in a day or two. Methanol is very corrosive even when compared to E85, I let my truck sit for months with E85 and never have a problem.
You'd have to dig into the use cases each fuel is designed for when researching race fuels. VP makes about a dozen different fuels (C16, Q16, C23, VP Import, MS 109 C85, VP 110 and more). Each has a different target customer.
And you have blends that combine ethanol with race gases, and I don't know much about them like Ignite Red and stuff like that.
And you have blends that combine ethanol with race gases, and I don't know much about them like Ignite Red and stuff like that.
The ethanol fuels did about 20 rwhp better on the supercharged c7 in the test video, so that cooling effect is so darn handy and obvious in power gains (while simultaneously knowing it's better for the pistons/valves/cylinder walls through temp reduction).
I live 3 hours away from the nearest E85 station so ordering anything in 5 gallon pails, is expensive regardless if it's E85 or C16, so I'll go with the best option. VP'S C85 and X98 aren't leaded, so that should be handy for o2 sensor life while still being a very good option.
Q16 may be better than any of those, but it's double the price of VP's X98.
