Hello LS1Tech community,
Did a little digging and not really finding a good answer for what I'm considering, seems like a lot of W/M users are looking to reduce IAT's or maybe squeeze a little more boost out of an SBE/pump gas combo.
My situation is neither, my current car uses and A2W system that works very well keeping my IAT's very low (around 100 degrees) and the engine is a forged rod/piston LS1.
Need a little direction and info if possible, the idea with this car was to run a pump gas tune and race gas tune but with the price of race fuel I'm now considering a W/M solution, E85 is not an option unfortunately.
Car will be tuned for pump gas only up around 14-15lbs. but would like to be able to turn the wick up higher using W/M say 20+ lbs.
Is this feasible or should I just run race fuel?
How far will a good W/M kit take you?
What are some high-quality kits long time W/M users would recommend?
Washer fluid versus straight meth?
Any insight or advice is greatly appreciated as this is a topic, I'm very new to.
@Forcefed86 @ddnspider

 

I went this route back in 2008 with my 3.8 turbo engine. (Buick GN, intercooled) Turbo Buicks pretty much pioneered water/meth kits.

They are around 8.3:1 so they are more suited to pump gas. But I was able to run 16ish lbs on 18* of timing with no registered knock on 91 octane with a decent A2A IC. . This was in a 3000lb Rx-7. They also have what I’d consider a ”slow burn head” and required more ignition lead. So not the greatest comparison to a LS. I tried washer fluid which is around 30%, 50/50, and 100% meth over the years. And found without a doubt that 100% methanol was the way to go. The distribution of the factory intake with a *RJC POWER PLATE* was actually really good. Better than an LS IMO. Even so we found around 20-30% of the total fueling was the limit for aux injection. More than that and we had distribution issues. I replaced roughly 25% of my total fueling with straight meth pre TB. I was able to run 25lbs and 25* of timing which net me my best ET. (More boost and less timing and I went slower.)

Take away being… It works well up until you run into distribution issues with your manifold.(is direct port an option?) Use 100% meth if you want big gains. More volume the better.

All that said on my 2 hot air E85 cars and my intercooled E85 car run a simple 50/50 mix at low volumes strictly for a wider tuning window. 7gph on the intercooled car and roughly 20 on the hot air cars directly into the turbo(s). I can run with or without it and not have any detonation issues on all of them. I also see no gains ET/MPH wise with or without it. Just a cooler plug reading with the water/meth on. As a side benefit, I find it keeps my engines super clean inside.

100% meth in dangerous and not fun to deal with. You should run a serious SS fuel system w a burst panel of some sort on the intake if you run large amounts of methanol injection. But it can defiantly meet your goal and much more.

 

Totally feasible to do what you want. I couldn't run more than about ~10 psi on straight 93 with my setup due to it being 10.5:1 CR unless I neutered timing. With a single M10 nozzle I've seen 16 psi with normal timing and no knock. As long as you have good ignition you can spray much more than I do too. Cylinder distribution can be a problem if you're spraying a ton, but you could consider a direct port setup if you wanted to be sure.

Guys like @AwesomeAuto have posted up that the water was more critical than the octane from the meth. He had a wastegate failure that resulted in a massive overboost and because he was spraying a heavy amount of WMI, his logs showed no knock. He said he was sure he would have torched the motor if he wasn't on WMI. I've been happy with straight -20F WWF is about 30% meth, but you can add a bottle of HEET which is basically pure methanol if you want an octane boost.

As far as what kit, I made my own and suggest the same. Pick your pump and nozzle and solenoid. I run a boost switch to kick on the pump at a set PSI, some like progressive or PWM'd setups. I also run a hobbs switch right at the nozzle that turns on an LED on my dash. Its set to something like 50-100 psi. This essentially guarantees that if that LED is on then you have WMI flowing. Some of these "fail-safes" with these off the shelf kits that go off of motor current are crap IMO.

93 pump only stuff is the world I live in, no E85 so my experience is based off of that.

 

I don’t agree 100% on the water theory, unless you are spraying miniscule amounts. (Like the amounts most water meth kits suggest) I agree, 50/50 is the way to go. The whole issue with water is you can’t spray large volumes. IE I was spraying over 40gph of 100% meth on a relatively small 3.8 making roughly 600whp. If I tried to spray even 15gph of 50/50 it would be down on power and even break up at the upper RPM range. This was back in the early 2000’s and the Buick ignition system isn’t anywhere near as good as the LS. But I found similar results with my LS setups. With 10gph at each turbo inlet on both my 5.3’s w/ washer fluid I had reduced performance. I couldn’t feel it breaking up, but I saw notably slower ET/MPH with the kit on VS off. I went to 50/50 and had to reduce the DC to the pump to get my MPH back. Plugs gapped down to .015 with the D585s at 4MS. I’m not saying water doesn’t have its benefits and place. Just that I found hands down meth was MUCH more effective. What I find with most LS water meth users is they spraying very little expecting a lot. What I found is the more volume the better.

Quick easy math example. Take a typical 1000 crank HP LS.

Say you want 20% of your fueling replaced with 100% meth. So 200hp worth of meth injection.

Multiply .0053 gpm by 200. You get 1.06. OR 1. Multiply that by 60 to get GPH. So about 60 GPH is needed to replace 200HP with methanol. Then look at flow ratings of the meth pumps at even 100psi. You’ll see they fall quite a bit short. The “good ones” flow around 40-50gph max @ 100psi. Typical meth kits would have to be around 40psi to flow 60gph. Which isn’t happening on a charge pipe.

To say water is better because someone didn’t blow their motor isn’t super relevant IMO. I can’t count the # of times I should have been picking up pieces of that old Buick engine. And no water was involved. Large amounts of meth behave in the same way and will help you.

Also find Heet works well and is easy to come by. -20 washer fluid is about 30%. 2 bottles of heat in 1 gallon gets you close to 50%. Its what I use in my small volume kits anyway. Also a fan of big reservoirs. I like the 2.5 gallon poly sprayer tanks with a 5" lid.

 

You're reading WAY too much into my real world example from a well respected chemist who posted that information. I'm not suggesting spray a bunch of water. The point of the post was don't bother running 100% meth or some high content. Good ol -20 or -30F WWF will work just fine.

 

Thank you, gents, for the excellent info!
My current intake setup is a Vic Jr. with an Aaron's aluminum sheet metal elbow so I could easily add a nozzle right behind the TB and that way the WMI mixture gets split by the divider in the elbow before making the turn into the intake.
Is this what you meant by a direct injected setup?
Who would be a good supplier to look for a pump/nozzle and solenoid?
I was thinking of picking up a small fuel cell to go in the back where my A2W reservoir is at since that space is lost now anyways.
My tuner currently has my timing at 12-13 degrees running at 10lbs. with the intention of turning it up to 14-16 lbs. we simply ran out of time before winter weather moved in but I think that amount of timing should be pretty safe for pump gas at those boost levels with low IAT's.
If I could simply add WMI and continue raising the boost into the 20+ range, I think that'd be a win win.
For ignition I have the D585 round truck coils and just installed a high output JS Alternator so voltage will no longer be a concern.
So at that 14-16lb. mark I should be pretty close to 800whp and if I wanted to add another 200whp via higher boost/WMI what GPH nozzle should I be looking at?
I'm not intending to "replace" fueling as my injectors should be good to 1000whp albeit it they will be close to maxxed out so the WMI would be in addition to that or am I misunderstanding?
Thanks again guys.

 

Back in 2003, I had the same goals as the OP, but it was in a 4 cyl 2.5L with similar swirl heads. This was a daily driver that saw the drag strip very often. Before meth kits were a thing, I DIYd a direct port injection into each intake runner with denatured alcohol from Home Depot. A regular fuel injection fuel pump, without a pressure regulator, would turn on based on a hobbs switch at 12psi. I don't remember the nozzle sizes, but they were standard grocery store vegetable isle misting nozzles and sprayed about 10 oz of alcohol per 1/4 mile run.

The engine saw 24-28 psi on a regular basis. I don't have the ratio of alcohol to gas because I couldn't regulate the alcohol back then, so instead I would tune the gas down until I got the proper A/F at full throttle. This setup made 340 at the wheels through an automatic and was very successful and reliable with hundreds of passes. This was in the car in my profile picture.

I'm not saying you should do the same thing, just sharing my successful experience. If I did it again, I would go with direct port injection with a modern kit. I chose a metal intake manifold for my current LS Turbo C3 so I had the option of adding direct port injection more easily than a fiberglass intake.

 

Well and I was just looking at the manual for my Cortex EBC and it has provisions for controlling WMI so that is pretty cool.
Looks like I may just need the hardware and can use the EBC to activate the system.

 

Not reading into anything, or trying to argue. Have you’d tried 100% meth in larger volumes as a comparison? I have, on many different boosted engines over many years. Also been in groups of multiple racers doing the same and all are of the same opinion. Straight meth is superior performance wise, hands down. I’m not saying its for everyone. I’m just saying if I were wanting to push pump gas, 100% methanol is the way to go. Personally 50/50 didn’t meet my goals on any pump gas setup I ran. 2jz, 4g63,LC2,SBC. I ran 100% meth on all of them and the difference between the boost and timing possible with 100% meth is huge.

If you can get away with small volumes of 50/50, more power to you. Its beneficial to do it that way in terms of upkeep and cost. Performance wise straight meth is far superior, happy to debate that with anyone.

 

Another detail,, Methanol is already tough on parts(Especially aluminum, when it sits, its WAY worse if water is present.
I'd add a oz or so of Klotz to the meth tank to help avoid corrosion and methanol chrystals in the system..
Its a passive top end lube that stabilizes the methanol very popular in sprint cars..

 

I was poking around on Devils Own website and they specifically state not to run anything higher than 50/50 as anything higher is considered a flamible liquid.
I have no doubt 100% meth works well but this warning would concern me about doing so.

 

I was led to believe that gasoline is a flammable liquid too.

 

This would definitely concern me as my car sits A LOT, it's at best a once-a-month street warrior and it will not see the higher boost levels on a regular basis that will require the WMI kit to be active.
The kit is really for hero dyno days and maybe all-out track days occasionally, the pump gas only power should be plenty to get me well into the 9's and hopefully high 8's with a sorted chassis.

 

Well yeah but the meth kit isn't spraying gasoline.
They may have that note on there to give them an out for people spraying 100% meth and thusly having issues from a variety of reasons.

 

Direct inject just like N2O.
https://www.nitrousexpress.com/water...ort-manifolds/
https://prometh.com/collections/nozz...zzles-packages
The benefit to running something other than 100% meth is that 50% or less is considered not flammable, and you can use a stock windshield washer tank. Given the intake your running, it would be easy to do a direct port, but if you have good cylinder to cylinder distribution you could run it post TB.

You acknowledged in your first post that it's "dangerous and not fun to deal with". None of my goals have required 100% meth. You can say my goals are too low, but my setup matches OP's ask. We can agree to disagree or not, doesn't matter to me.

Exactly. Your example is literally my experience. You were octane limited on 93 and had to keep timing down for your boost limit. Add -20F WWF with a single M10 nozzle and you'll either be able to add timing or 5-6 psi with no knock. Want to add more, run a 2nd or larger nozzle than I do. Want more octane? Add a bottle of HEET.

 

I’m a fan of big tanks with big lids. A fuel cell works, but these work better IMO. Great for methanol. Easy to clean.

https://www.plastic-mart.com/product...ank-sp002-5-rt

As far as nozzles go it just depends what will work best for you. Kits and companies make it easy, but are expensive. If you aren’t on a budget, alkycontrol is by far the best IMO. Just call Julio up and tell him what you want to do. If piecing a kit together, you want SS or nickel plated nozzles. Irrigation fogging nozzles will all work and are usually rated in GPH at 100psi.

There are always risks with performance. Companies that push 50/50 do so for liability and safety reasons as well as shipping cost. An Aux meth kit should be treated just like a fuel system. I don’t consider a fuel system as unsafe *if* setup properly. Same with a 100% meth kit. But it can be dangerous to simply throw 100% meth in a kit not designed for it. Which is why companies like Devilsown don’t suggest it. Meth will swell the o-rings in the push-lock fittings, and they will leak over time possibly causing a fire. Meth fires are fast, hot, and practically invisible in the daylight. I’m the first to admit I made mistakes. Knowing what I know now that could have all been avoided with quality fittings/lines/placement. Which is why I mention that fact that it *can* be dangerous.

Go to alkycontrol.com. Julio was a pioneer in this business starting out back on the Turbo Buick forums at the same time I did. He has kits setup for 100% meth. And will tell you the exact same thing… meth has MUCH greater potential.

As far as flammability. 50/50 by volume and weight are both quite flammable. To be “safe” you’d have to be down around 30%.

 

Love this about the 5 min mark.

#INB4 it's not a legit test.

 

That direct port kit looks a bit intimidating as I've not had great luck bending and flaring tubing lol.
I could easily do a nozzle on either side of the elbow right behind the TB which I think would work well.
I did shoot an email to ProMeth to see what they recommend, since you attached the link, I'm going to assume they make good stuff and would be a good vendor to purchase from.

 

Thanks, I'll check out Alkycontrol as well!

 

That would totally work if you have decent distribution in that manifold. You could run dual M10 nozzles and probably run twice the boost given youre at ~10 psi right now. You would likely want a progressive or turn on the 2 nozzles separately though so it doesn't hit all at once.