When you click on links to various merchants on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network.
Think about it from a liquid, mass, and surface area calculation. If you have a turbocharger spinning 50,000rpm, and then liquid hits the blades, that is incompressable mass that the turbo now has to accelerate and sling outwards. This is exactly what it does with air but air has almost no viscosity or hysteresis, and is compressible and only 1/800 the density of water. If it actually is inside of the housing as a liquid in any significant amount that would put it in shear and mean huge losses to viscosity. Once it gets squeezed past the compressor housing now this liquid is going to centrifuge out and smack against the outside of the inlet, and then it will start to evaporate as air passes over it, not longer a fine mist with a surface area of meters squared per gram but a layer of liquid on the inside of the cold side outlet.
Maybe the saving grace is that this is just a small amount of mass, its not like a carburetor drawing into a turbocharger. The surface area of the inside of the turbo may be so much larger than the water available to wet it that it becomes inconsequential.
Really don't think its an issue as guys are spraying 500+ HP worth of 100% meth pre-turbo without issue. Early F1 turbo days they also would spray as much as 50% of the fueling through the turbo for cooling and increased efficiency.
Given that every pre-turbo system I have seen burps back a nice big cloud of water/methanol on every closure of the throttle blades, that looks like a great way to have your car burn down if you ever have a backfire.
Given that every pre-turbo system I have seen burps back a nice big cloud of water/methanol on every closure of the throttle blades, that looks like a great way to have your car burn down if you ever have a backfire.
that sounds like it would occur if you don't have a BOV or the turbo seizes up.
No BOV here and done it for years and years. Zero burps or fires coming out of my inlets. Most recent setup has the turbos out in the open. Could easily see any sort of flame at night. Never had a burp or issue due to pre-turbo meth anyway. zero blade erosion, no fires, etc...
Not saying it couldn't happen though. These guys car just burnt up pretty good when a backfire thru the induction system managed to light off the fuel tank vent... An ignition sync error caused the flame, bad fuel tank location did the rest. Still, never hurts to be carefull. Things happen... Just not common in my experience. I've sprayed a lot of fluid through a lot of turbos over the years.
I also use it to calculate my equivalent octane. Since the topic was meth vs race gas you could see where you are. Not that pump gas and meth is the exact same thing as running just race gas but that is a different topic.
Plug in you "inputs" and see what you are working with.
This is not my work BTW. All credit goes to MightyMouse.
So if I did this right, if I'm using pure methanol and spraying with two 15 gal/hr nozzles I get a target gasohol lambda of .72 and a total octane of 98.09 for a 1,200hp application?
So figure 20% in drive train losses through the TH400 would put me at 1000whp.
Does it also make sense that if 25% of the fuel used is methanol that my injectors will go farther as well?
Lastly where is a good place to buy methanol by the pail, I'm looking and there seems to be different kinds for different purposes?
No BOV here and done it for years and years. Zero burps or fires coming out of my inlets. Most recent setup has the turbos out in the open. Could easily see any sort of flame at night. Never had a burp or issue due to pre-turbo meth anyway. zero blade erosion, no fires, etc...
Not saying it couldn't happen though. These guys car just burnt up pretty good when a backfire thru the induction system managed to light off the fuel tank vent... An ignition sync error caused the flame, bad fuel tank location did the rest. Still, never hurts to be carefull. Things happen... Just not common in my experience. I've sprayed a lot of fluid through a lot of turbos over the years.
Have any local circle tracks? M1 is the preferred fuel for most of the dirt track stuff here. I get it at my local dirt track supply store. If you were in a pickle you can run yellow HEET bottles. Its basically 100% meth. OR order a 5gal pale from any race fuel vendor.
And yes... if you add X% of fuel your injectors will go that much farther. 25% is a lot. Maybe I missed something... 25% of say 800hp is 200hp.
One gallon of methanol weighs 6.3 lbs. Meth has a BSFC of 2, so equates to .0053 GPM.
Multiply .0053 into the amount of HP you are making and you will get the approximate GPM required. Multiply by 60 for gph? So... 63.6 GPH is required to supplement 200HP worth of AUX injection. 31.8GPH for 100 HP.
All I did was input the desired flywheel horsepower, injected methanol flow and gasoline octane and that's what it spit out.
Even if I change the gasoline BSFC to .55 it doesn't change it a ton.
What did I miss?
Believe that spreadsheet is just used to calculate the AFR you should shoot for on the gauge when you are mixing 2 fuels with extremely different peak power AFR’s.
The BSFC of methanol is an average of 2.0. Which means you need to flow 2 lbs per hour for each one horsepower made.
One gallon of methanol weighs 6.3 lbs so a BSFC of 2 equates to .0053 GPM.
Multiply .0053 into the amount of HP you are making. This gives you the approximate GPM required. Multiply by 60 to get the GPH.
Nozzles are rated in GPH. An M15 is 15GPH @ 100psi. You need 4 M15’s to supplement 200hp worth of fuel with 100% methanol. Also… the pumps supplied likely won’t be able to pump 60GPH at 100psi. Also have to remember if you don’t spray pre-turbo you are fighting boost pressure. So if you run 20lbs of boost the pump has to overcome that and flows even less.
Now I’m not saying you need that much. I’d go with the amount Julio suggests. If he states 2 M15’s, you are replacing roughly 100hp. OR 12.5%. Kinda like tunning E10 fuel…. Or “M12”.
@Forcefed86 Reviving this thread, I've been looking at ProMeth pumps which they're top tier unit PM190 unit is rated for 220 psi so I'm looking at one of these units.
Been talking with Chris at Cortex who has suggested two different methods of control, pump pwm and solenoid control so right now I'm looking at pump pwm operation using the Cortex for control. Chris's only concern is the non-linear nature of control using pump pwm, I just don't think I want to mess with solenoid control and all that entails.
With 220 psi of operating pressure would it be reasonable to expect more horsepower support over the typical 100 psi type pumps?
Yes and No. Bigger pumps and more pressure is fluff, if you aren’t going to use it.
More pressure gets you slightly more atomization and better distribution w smaller droplets. Or at least in theory. I had read that 100psi will produce 5micron droplets “nominal” on the standard old school Devils own wall mount mister nozzles. Not sure any smaller is needed. Or worth the cost.
They say 50gph at 190psi on that pump. Which is a lot of volume for that pressure. But larger pumps are only needed if you are spraying large volumes. I doubt you’ll spray anywhere near 50GPH. So the added flow/pressure may not be justified cost wise when you could just buy a $100 shurflo 8000 series pump.
IMO 100psi is all that’s necessary to get the droplets down super small. Its what the nozzles are rated at flow wise too. So boost pressure plus 100psi is all that’s needed to keep things simple and cheap.
Kinda up to you. Do you want to push it and really lean on the meth? Or do you want to slap on a 7-10gph nozzle with some 50/50 just to keep out of detonation and run a bit more boost?
If I were to make a pump gas car. I’d do 4-5gph direct at each runner so I knew I had good distribution. Then use PWM on the pump and let the auto tune pull fuel from my base map to phase in a ton of meth. Would be just as good as E85 IMO. Would just need to setup AFR safeties and keep on top of the meth system maintenance. No different than a dual fuel car with 16 injectors. If one of the injectors or pumps fail. You are pretty much hosed too! Treat it like a fuel system.
Yes and No. Bigger pumps and more pressure is fluff, if you aren’t going to use it.
More pressure gets you slightly more atomization and better distribution w smaller droplets. Or at least in theory. I had read that 100psi will produce 5micron droplets “nominal” on the standard old school Devils own wall mount mister nozzles. Not sure any smaller is needed. Or worth the cost.
They say 50gph at 190psi on that pump. Which is a lot of volume for that pressure. But larger pumps are only needed if you are spraying large volumes. I doubt you’ll spray anywhere near 50GPH. So the added flow/pressure may not be justified cost wise when you could just buy a $100 shurflo 8000 series pump.
IMO 100psi is all that’s necessary to get the droplets down super small. Its what the nozzles are rated at flow wise too. So boost pressure plus 100psi is all that’s needed to keep things simple and cheap.
Kinda up to you. Do you want to push it and really lean on the meth? Or do you want to slap on a 7-10gph nozzle with some 50/50 just to keep out of detonation and run a bit more boost?
If I were to make a pump gas car. I’d do 4-5gph direct at each runner so I knew I had good distribution. Then use PWM on the pump and let the auto tune pull fuel from my base map to phase in a ton of meth. Would be just as good as E85 IMO. Would just need to setup AFR safeties and keep on top of the meth system maintenance. No different than a dual fuel car with 16 injectors. If one of the injectors or pumps fail. You are pretty much hosed too! Treat it like a fuel system.
I want to lean on it and this S484 turbo I've got as that is just in my nature.
I've come to terms with the fact that the goals I have involve more than just a nozzle or two.
ProMeth has a pre-bent direct injection kit for $469.00 which looks very appealing. Universal V8 Direct Port Methanol Injection (Pre-Bent) – ProMeth
There isn't a lot of room on the runners on the intake though.
If they'll work above the injectors that would be okay, but I'd be worried about spraying meth onto the injectors, or should I not be worried about that?
I can order the kit with .5 or .75 nozzles as well, I think that paired up with the big pump would get me more than enough to really lean on the turbo.
That’s a lotta cash, but it does look like they made it easy… ish. Still gotta install it.
.5 or .75 GPH? .5gph x 8 would be 4gph total. That’s not worth your time or the cost of a direct port kit. (also won’t do diddly.) Unless they are talking .5 GPM?
You should be maxing out the pump at 50gph or more. You want to replace as much of your WOT fueling with 100% METH as possible. Gotta remember meth takes 50%+ more fuel. 50 gph is enough to supplement like 250hp. 50/8 is 6gph at each runner. Which is why I suggested a 4-5gph nozzle at each runner. The nozzles are flow calculated at 100psi. So at 190 they will flow more. Though you have to subtract your boost pressure too…
So if you made 1000hp @ the crank you’d be replacing roughly ¼ of your fuel with methanol. Basically 25% methanol blend. Would behave similar to 25% ethanol blends which we know isn’t a miracle working percentage. 50% plus is where you get serious benefits.
The other option would be to buy one of those Holley 16 injector intakes. And running actual dual fuel. C16 and pump gas is a nasty blend and doesn’t require the ridiculous fuel system methanol does. And you don’t use much per run if its done right.
Factory ECU is pretty limiting! but I know lots of guys love them. Id save up for a replacement there first. Will make everything else you do MUCH easier.
That’s a lotta cash, but it does look like they made it easy… ish. Still gotta install it.
.5 or .75 GPH? .5gph x 8 would be 4gph total. That’s not worth your time or the cost of a direct port kit. (also won’t do diddly.) Unless they are talking .5 GPM?
You should be maxing out the pump at 50gph or more. You want to replace as much of your WOT fueling with 100% METH as possible. Gotta remember meth takes 50%+ more fuel. 50 gph is enough to supplement like 250hp. 50/8 is 6gph at each runner. Which is why I suggested a 4-5gph nozzle at each runner. The nozzles are flow calculated at 100psi. So at 190 they will flow more. Though you have to subtract your boost pressure too…
So if you made 1000hp @ the crank you’d be replacing roughly ¼ of your fuel with methanol. Basically 25% methanol blend. Would behave similar to 25% ethanol blends which we know isn’t a miracle working percentage. 50% plus is where you get serious benefits.
The other option would be to buy one of those Holley 16 injector intakes. And running actual dual fuel. C16 and pump gas is a nasty blend and doesn’t require the ridiculous fuel system methanol does. And you don’t use much per run if its done right.
Factory ECU is pretty limiting! but I know lots of guys love them. Id save up for a replacement there first. Will make everything else you do MUCH easier.
I'm sorry, I'm an idiot, they go all the way up to 10 gph nozzles.
So I could do direct injection w/ 4-6 gph nozzles, the PM190 pump at 220 psi, minus 25 lbs. of boost pressure so 195-ish psi system operating pressure.
That would provide approximately 250-300hp of additional head room at minimum, maybe more since the system pressure is almost double.
If I had to guess, right now on pump fuel at 14 lbs. its probably making about 850-900 crank horsepower so with meth I'd be in the 1100-1200hp range which is right where I want to end up.
Does this sound about right?
Running race gas was my initial plan until the price skyrocketed, a drum of C16 is almost $1,400 so I'd rather spend that on a meth system and get more use out if it.
This car drinks fuel, I made 4-5 full pulls on the street and used almost 1/2 tank of fuel so figure a day of racing would easily cost me over $250 in fuel at minimum.
The aftermarket ECU conversation is a whole different can of worms, its something I'd love to do for all the reasons you mentioned but I have no clue where to start or what I'd need.
I hear ya… have you looked into 5 gal pails? You’d be surprised how long they will last on a dual fuel system that’s setup correctly. If you only use the fuel at say 14lbs and over. So you only are spraying the race fuel for like 7-8 seconds a pass. Also you don’t have to replace all your fuel with the race fuel. You can ramp the race fuel percentage in slowly. So run say 5% c18 mix at 15lbs and ramp it up to say 75% C18 fuel at 25lbs.
You can get a 5 gal Klotz 118 octane for $128 on amazon. They do hit you w shipping tho. Ends up being like $30 a gallon. Torco 118 is on ebay for the same price. I’d think a 5 gal pale would last ya close to a year though. For reference a bud uses the c28 fuel on his 300hp drag bike. It only uses a few ounces per pass. And that included the burn out and drive back to pits. But you’d need a $1200-1500 ecu off the bat so prob no the most economical.
I’m all for the direct port meth system as you never see them. Just throwing out ideas. You could still run a 30-50% ethanol blend and run the meth on top. You can run a ethanol sensor on the factory ECU. Even 20-30% ethanol blends are better than 91 octane.
I hear ya… have you looked into 5 gal pails? You’d be surprised how long they will last on a dual fuel system that’s setup correctly. If you only use the fuel at say 14lbs and over. So you only are spraying the race fuel for like 7-8 seconds a pass. Also you don’t have to replace all your fuel with the race fuel. You can ramp the race fuel percentage in slowly. So run say 5% c18 mix at 15lbs and ramp it up to say 75% C18 fuel at 25lbs.
You can get a 5 gal Klotz 118 octane for $128 on amazon. They do hit you w shipping tho. Ends up being like $30 a gallon. Torco 118 is on ebay for the same price. I’d think a 5 gal pale would last ya close to a year though. For reference a bud uses the c28 fuel on his 300hp drag bike. It only uses a few ounces per pass. And that included the burn out and drive back to pits. But you’d need a $1200-1500 ecu off the bat so prob no the most economical.
I’m all for the direct port meth system as you never see them. Just throwing out ideas. You could still run a 30-50% ethanol blend and run the meth on top. You can run a ethanol sensor on the factory ECU. Even 20-30% ethanol blends are better than 91 octane.
That was my thought as well, the direct port is very cool looking, you don't see them often and it looks like I can set it up to deliver a very large amount of fuel if needed.
I like this plan, direct port, install a flex fuel sensor, and use some light pre mix if needed, a 55 gal drum of M1 is super cheap compared to race fuel.
This will work as I can start piecing the kit together over time, if my buddy gives me a ripping deal on his current meth kit which is a two-nozzle kit, I may just install it to get my bearings and make a little more power in the meantime.
The flex fuel sensor will need to go in the feed line correct?
If I wanted to start researching aftermarket ECU's like the Holley, do you know which one would handle my application?
If you don’t plan to tune it yourself. I’d ask around your areas tuners and see what they prefer. They are all pretty similar IMO. But id get what ever the person tuning the car is most familiar with. Around me everyone is Holley crazy. I started long ago on the AEM and mega squirt stuff so I prefer those. But Im an amateur at best. They are all pretty darn capable for what we do IMO. All will do a 16 inj setup. Or control noids for meth inj, PWM pumps, etc.
So there’s some debate on the location of the ethanol sensor. I put it on my return and had issues. But I was mxing out my fuel system and bascically wasn’t returning much fuel so I’d get erroneous ethanol content readings when maxing out the system which is bad. I ended up putting in on the -6 feed that filled my surge tank and it worked perfectly.
It’s a 3/8 ID hard line so pretty restrictive to put in your feed direct. Companies make a little “Y” on the feed and feed the sensor in parallel. That’s prob your best bet. Def. don’t need to buy the kits though. They are pretty expensive IMO.
I'd like to tune the car myself; I had started and was making head way but then a valve spring broke unbeknownst to me and threw me off and actually started going backwards.
I've been told the Holley is very easy to use and tune, plus everyone uses them local to me so that's probably what I'd do.
Looks like the Holley HP EFI is the way to go, ecu and plug and play harness is $2,500 and I'd assume I'd still use my factory gauges and what not.
Motion Raceworks makes a nice flex fuel parallel sensor, so I'd probably go with theirs.
6 Common C5 Corvette Failures and What's Involved In Repairing Them
Slideshow: From wobbling harmonic balancers to failed EBCMs, these are the issues that define long-term C5 ownership and what repairs typically involve.
Retro Modern Bandit Pontiac Trans AM Comes With Burt Reynolds' Autograph
Slideshow: A modern Camaro transformed into a retro icon, this limited-run "Bandit" build blends nostalgia with brute force in a way few revivals manage.
Top 10 Greatest Cadillac V Series Performance Models Ever, Ranked
Slideshow: Cadillac didn't just crash the high-performance luxury vehicle party, it showed up loud, supercharged, and occasionally a little unhinged...
Coachbuilt N2A Anteros Is an LS2-Powered C6 Corvette In Italian Clothes
Slideshow: A one-off sports car that looks like a vintage Italian exotic-but hides a C6 Corvette underneath-just sold for the price of a new mid-engine Corvette.
