Water Meth Instead of Race Gas?
Holley's are def user friendly in many ways. They do make ya jump through hoops to do somethings compared to MS3 IMO. Also less inputs/outputs for the same $2500 seems like alot? Also I have heard you can't get the holleys lately. Everything's on back order for months and months. There's a thread on it here somewhere here.
Where as something like the MS3 gold box is $1225 with a plug an play harness.
Where as something like the MS3 gold box is $1225 with a plug an play harness.
On The Tree
Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 120
Likes: 12
I'm sorry, I'm an idiot, they go all the way up to 10 gph nozzles.
So I could do direct injection w/ 4-6 gph nozzles, the PM190 pump at 220 psi, minus 25 lbs. of boost pressure so 195-ish psi system operating pressure.
That would provide approximately 250-300hp of additional head room at minimum, maybe more since the system pressure is almost double.
If I had to guess, right now on pump fuel at 14 lbs. its probably making about 850-900 crank horsepower so with meth I'd be in the 1100-1200hp range which is right where I want to end up.
Does this sound about right?
Running race gas was my initial plan until the price skyrocketed, a drum of C16 is almost $1,400 so I'd rather spend that on a meth system and get more use out if it.
This car drinks fuel, I made 4-5 full pulls on the street and used almost 1/2 tank of fuel so figure a day of racing would easily cost me over $250 in fuel at minimum.
The aftermarket ECU conversation is a whole different can of worms, its something I'd love to do for all the reasons you mentioned but I have no clue where to start or what I'd need.
So I could do direct injection w/ 4-6 gph nozzles, the PM190 pump at 220 psi, minus 25 lbs. of boost pressure so 195-ish psi system operating pressure.
That would provide approximately 250-300hp of additional head room at minimum, maybe more since the system pressure is almost double.
If I had to guess, right now on pump fuel at 14 lbs. its probably making about 850-900 crank horsepower so with meth I'd be in the 1100-1200hp range which is right where I want to end up.
Does this sound about right?
Running race gas was my initial plan until the price skyrocketed, a drum of C16 is almost $1,400 so I'd rather spend that on a meth system and get more use out if it.
This car drinks fuel, I made 4-5 full pulls on the street and used almost 1/2 tank of fuel so figure a day of racing would easily cost me over $250 in fuel at minimum.
The aftermarket ECU conversation is a whole different can of worms, its something I'd love to do for all the reasons you mentioned but I have no clue where to start or what I'd need.
Last edited by Gumby83; Aug 18, 2023 at 04:56 AM. Reason: added fuel map pic
Holley's are def user friendly in many ways. They do make ya jump through hoops to do somethings compared to MS3 IMO. Also less inputs/outputs for the same $2500 seems like alot? Also I have heard you can't get the holleys lately. Everything's on back order for months and months. There's a thread on it here somewhere here.
Where as something like the MS3 gold box is $1225 with a plug an play harness.
Where as something like the MS3 gold box is $1225 with a plug an play harness.
Supply and demand or overall features?
All systems are going to have some limitations or not do something exactly as you’d expect.
It’s going to come down to what you want to use.
I had never touched Holley, installed in my car, drove it around and street tuned it. Maybe 20 miles of cruising and rolling into it - 2 hits on the street and then the 3rd pass at the track it went 9s. The closed loop/learn and logging make the system.
Holley isn’t perfect - if the battery is low and you crank it, good chance it’ll wipe the tune and not start until you reload it.
It’s going to come down to what you want to use.
I had never touched Holley, installed in my car, drove it around and street tuned it. Maybe 20 miles of cruising and rolling into it - 2 hits on the street and then the 3rd pass at the track it went 9s. The closed loop/learn and logging make the system.
Holley isn’t perfect - if the battery is low and you crank it, good chance it’ll wipe the tune and not start until you reload it.
TECH Addict
Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 2,513
Likes: 480
From: PDX-OR-USA
Just t thumbs up for the tuning ability of the Holley. I'm not doing anything exotic but I wanted to NOT be dependent on HPtuner locked tune insanity
I am about 2000 in mine but I bought 2 years ago..
random methanol thoughts..
If your going to have more than a gallon of Methanol on board, Look at a purple K extinguisher, or A "Coldfire" fire system.
The other advantage of any amount of a hydrocarbon lube in the methanol is it will make the flames visible.
Worst thing about methanol is in daylight there is no smoke no flame nothing.
I've had drivers on fire and they did not know it! Til the heat.. Guy wondered why I opened a fire hydrant on him.. LOL
I mentioned the Klotz product a long while back, They know methanol. And after the grief of cleaning a system that got left too long I believe in the stuff.
Oh,, side rail note, Push fit is illegal on most dirt cars for a reason... Having a -12 line with 30 lbs of pressure in it with methanol give up is pretty much too exiting for me..
I converted a 1300C air cooled carbed GSXR from race gas to 100% methanol, its was life changing.. The torque and cooler head temps were priceless.
.
I am about 2000 in mine but I bought 2 years ago..
random methanol thoughts..
If your going to have more than a gallon of Methanol on board, Look at a purple K extinguisher, or A "Coldfire" fire system.
The other advantage of any amount of a hydrocarbon lube in the methanol is it will make the flames visible.
Worst thing about methanol is in daylight there is no smoke no flame nothing.
I've had drivers on fire and they did not know it! Til the heat.. Guy wondered why I opened a fire hydrant on him.. LOL
I mentioned the Klotz product a long while back, They know methanol. And after the grief of cleaning a system that got left too long I believe in the stuff.
Oh,, side rail note, Push fit is illegal on most dirt cars for a reason... Having a -12 line with 30 lbs of pressure in it with methanol give up is pretty much too exiting for me..
I converted a 1300C air cooled carbed GSXR from race gas to 100% methanol, its was life changing.. The torque and cooler head temps were priceless.
.
The gold box doesn't come with a built in trans controller like the holley does. Its $500 extra for that. Does not come with a screen like the holley does either. I suppose thats the difference in price? ******* as far as I've read on both of them. I don't own either, so I'm not 100%
I've been running a 10gph nozzle with my factory washer pump spraying preturbo. Its more of a precaution. i run 11 degrees of timing at 22psi on 93 pump. I havent picked up any knock with or without it. Not long ago, something failed (havent looked at it yet) and the pump stayed running and water was leaking out my turbo when I parked the car. Had I been spraying after the turbo, it likely would have hydro locked the engine. Last night I took two people for a ride and it made 25psi because of the weight, no spray, pump 93 and I think the timing is at 10 degrees that high of boost. Surprised it didn't scatter or blow a head gasket.
Last edited by Kfxguy; Aug 19, 2023 at 10:18 AM.
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TECH Fanatic
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,063
Likes: 475
From: Bostwick, GA.
Current list on a Terminator X Max is $1660.
It includes the following:
Includes: 58x/4x LS Engine Main Harness - EV6 Injector Harness - 4L60E/4L80E Transmission Control Harness - Terminator X MAX ECU - ECU Main Power Harness - Bosch LSU 4.9 Wideband Oxygen Sensor - Input/Output Harness - and assorted vacuum adapters.
It includes the following:
Includes: 58x/4x LS Engine Main Harness - EV6 Injector Harness - 4L60E/4L80E Transmission Control Harness - Terminator X MAX ECU - ECU Main Power Harness - Bosch LSU 4.9 Wideband Oxygen Sensor - Input/Output Harness - and assorted vacuum adapters.
Terminator X is cheaper if you don't need trans/dbw control as well.
The gold box does not include a built-in wideband controller.
Megasquirt is open source, if it doesn't do something you want it to - provided you can code, you could change it. Holley is closed source, but it's flexible - you can do damn near anything you can think of with advanced tables.
I/O is the big limitation on the entry level systems. They give you enough to get started - but you'll be longing for more.
The gold box does not include a built-in wideband controller.
Megasquirt is open source, if it doesn't do something you want it to - provided you can code, you could change it. Holley is closed source, but it's flexible - you can do damn near anything you can think of with advanced tables.
I/O is the big limitation on the entry level systems. They give you enough to get started - but you'll be longing for more.
Just t thumbs up for the tuning ability of the Holley. I'm not doing anything exotic but I wanted to NOT be dependent on HPtuner locked tune insanity
I am about 2000 in mine but I bought 2 years ago..
random methanol thoughts..
If your going to have more than a gallon of Methanol on board, Look at a purple K extinguisher, or A "Coldfire" fire system.
The other advantage of any amount of a hydrocarbon lube in the methanol is it will make the flames visible.
Worst thing about methanol is in daylight there is no smoke no flame nothing.
I've had drivers on fire and they did not know it! Til the heat.. Guy wondered why I opened a fire hydrant on him.. LOL
I mentioned the Klotz product a long while back, They know methanol. And after the grief of cleaning a system that got left too long I believe in the stuff.
Oh,, side rail note, Push fit is illegal on most dirt cars for a reason... Having a -12 line with 30 lbs of pressure in it with methanol give up is pretty much too exiting for me..
I converted a 1300C air cooled carbed GSXR from race gas to 100% methanol, its was life changing.. The torque and cooler head temps were priceless.
.
I am about 2000 in mine but I bought 2 years ago..
random methanol thoughts..
If your going to have more than a gallon of Methanol on board, Look at a purple K extinguisher, or A "Coldfire" fire system.
The other advantage of any amount of a hydrocarbon lube in the methanol is it will make the flames visible.
Worst thing about methanol is in daylight there is no smoke no flame nothing.
I've had drivers on fire and they did not know it! Til the heat.. Guy wondered why I opened a fire hydrant on him.. LOL
I mentioned the Klotz product a long while back, They know methanol. And after the grief of cleaning a system that got left too long I believe in the stuff.
Oh,, side rail note, Push fit is illegal on most dirt cars for a reason... Having a -12 line with 30 lbs of pressure in it with methanol give up is pretty much too exiting for me..
I converted a 1300C air cooled carbed GSXR from race gas to 100% methanol, its was life changing.. The torque and cooler head temps were priceless.
.
So the Klotz product is added to the methanol then?
It sounds like it stabilizes it too because I've been asking about what I need to do when parking the car with a meth system and no one really seems to have an answer.
For fittings, everything will be AN lines, not gonna take a chance on that lol.
This whole situation is changing too, I was in SC last week where I'm moving to and found two E85 stations very close to the area where I intend on living in addition to the ones, I found searching the internet.
With three to four E85 stations within a 2–4-mile radius of my home will make the decision to move to E85 a no brainer.
With that said I would still like to explore this option because even E85 has it's limits.
Current list on a Terminator X Max is $1660.
It includes the following:
Includes: 58x/4x LS Engine Main Harness - EV6 Injector Harness - 4L60E/4L80E Transmission Control Harness - Terminator X MAX ECU - ECU Main Power Harness - Bosch LSU 4.9 Wideband Oxygen Sensor - Input/Output Harness - and assorted vacuum adapters.
It includes the following:
Includes: 58x/4x LS Engine Main Harness - EV6 Injector Harness - 4L60E/4L80E Transmission Control Harness - Terminator X MAX ECU - ECU Main Power Harness - Bosch LSU 4.9 Wideband Oxygen Sensor - Input/Output Harness - and assorted vacuum adapters.
Wonder if that would bring the price down more?
Terminator X is cheaper if you don't need trans/dbw control as well.
The gold box does not include a built-in wideband controller.
Megasquirt is open source, if it doesn't do something you want it to - provided you can code, you could change it. Holley is closed source, but it's flexible - you can do damn near anything you can think of with advanced tables.
I/O is the big limitation on the entry level systems. They give you enough to get started - but you'll be longing for more.
The gold box does not include a built-in wideband controller.
Megasquirt is open source, if it doesn't do something you want it to - provided you can code, you could change it. Holley is closed source, but it's flexible - you can do damn near anything you can think of with advanced tables.
I/O is the big limitation on the entry level systems. They give you enough to get started - but you'll be longing for more.
I'm still using the cable operated TB and full manual TH400 so the Terminator X would be fine in that regard.
I don't need the big screen either as I don't mind using my factory gauges, maybe just the little screen in the dash for setup?
I/O is my concern since I don't know how that all works, short list of what needs controlling outside the engine:
- Engine Coolant Fans x2
- Engine Water Pump
- Transmission Cooler Fan
- Oil Cooler Fan at some point
- Fuel Pumps x2 - Will Probably be three in the very near future.
- A2W Coolant Pump
I really didn't expect E85 to be so readily available in the area I was looking at since I hadn't seen it in the dozen or so times, I've been out there this year.
An aftermarket ECU would really just be a luxury at this point, I'm sure they're nice but for a streetcar it seems a bit overkill.
I don't have any intentions of doing meth AND an aftermarket ECU lol.
I really didn't expect E85 to be so readily available in the area I was looking at since I hadn't seen it in the dozen or so times, I've been out there this year.
An aftermarket ECU would really just be a luxury at this point, I'm sure they're nice but for a streetcar it seems a bit overkill.
I really didn't expect E85 to be so readily available in the area I was looking at since I hadn't seen it in the dozen or so times, I've been out there this year.
An aftermarket ECU would really just be a luxury at this point, I'm sure they're nice but for a streetcar it seems a bit overkill.
You don't NEED an aftermarket ECU to run E85, if you decide to go that route. There are marginal gains of Ethanol over somewhere in the E70 range depending on who you ask. If you go full blown full time E85, you have plenty of cushion and can do that with the stock ECU. It just won't be flex on the exact ECU you currently have, so it won't blend between 91 and E85. You'll have a 91 tune and an E85 tune. Hardly seems like a big issue and gets you going much faster.
Will the sensor tell me the ethanol content of the fuel or will it simply detect ethanol in the fuel and switch the tune over?
Just asking if the sensor is enough or if I'll need to get the stuff to test the fuel beforehand.
Oh okay, so if I add the Flex Fuel sensor then the ECU can only default between the 91 tune and the E85 tune and nothing in between hence the reason for testing the E content before going racing or running the car hard so as not to run a lower E content and possibly damage the engine.
Will the sensor tell me the ethanol content of the fuel or will it simply detect ethanol in the fuel and switch the tune over?
Just asking if the sensor is enough or if I'll need to get the stuff to test the fuel beforehand.
Will the sensor tell me the ethanol content of the fuel or will it simply detect ethanol in the fuel and switch the tune over?
Just asking if the sensor is enough or if I'll need to get the stuff to test the fuel beforehand.
I'm saying you don't even need a flex fuel sensor. If you're running full time E85 then just roll with it. Test if you want but unless you're on the ragged edge of the tune it won't matter. If you go back to 91 (why would you after the whole conversation of moving to E85) then run your current tune and boost.
I hear about the "E85 goo" that some guy's experience and didn't know if running a tank of 91 through it from time to time would help with that or if I was storing the car.
I guess since I already have a 91 tune it wouldn't matter, just swap the tunes.
Regarding the tune, I don't plan on running on the ragged edge of any fuel, I'll lean on it but it will always be safe timing wise.
Unfortunately, all the fuel line I bought when I upgraded the fuel system is not E85 compatible so it will all have to go.
Is the submersible high pressure EFI rubber hose used in the fuel bucket E85 compatible?
My only thought for having the flex fuel sensor was for pickling the system from time to time.
I hear about the "E85 goo" that some guy's experience and didn't know if running a tank of 91 through it from time to time would help with that or if I was storing the car.
I guess since I already have a 91 tune it wouldn't matter, just swap the tunes.
Regarding the tune, I don't plan on running on the ragged edge of any fuel, I'll lean on it but it will always be safe timing wise.
Unfortunately, all the fuel line I bought when I upgraded the fuel system is not E85 compatible so it will all have to go.
Is the submersible high pressure EFI rubber hose used in the fuel bucket E85 compatible?
I hear about the "E85 goo" that some guy's experience and didn't know if running a tank of 91 through it from time to time would help with that or if I was storing the car.
I guess since I already have a 91 tune it wouldn't matter, just swap the tunes.
Regarding the tune, I don't plan on running on the ragged edge of any fuel, I'll lean on it but it will always be safe timing wise.
Unfortunately, all the fuel line I bought when I upgraded the fuel system is not E85 compatible so it will all have to go.
Is the submersible high pressure EFI rubber hose used in the fuel bucket E85 compatible?
https://www.racetronix.biz/p/fuel-ho...e85/rh-30r1038
You will see a WOT change in your wideband gas scale as ethanol content swings from say e70-85 etc. More gas will just just be richer and the opposite for ethanol. I just wouldn't tune things super aggressive and if the AFR changes a lot consider tweaking things or checking fuel. I try to just use the same station around my area which is generally e70 or so. I've seen things get a bit off with a stronger blend of e85 so I don't push the car and let my closed loop settings trim part throttle and idle.